Not that it will make a difference,... [Archive] - Straight Edge and Hardcore Message board

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gemmie312

07-12-2004, 07:29 PM

I read a bunch of the threads on your board last night to try to find someone else who has had my question, but I couldn't find it and there are sooo many posts so I am probably repeating something five hundred people have already said.

However, I am straight edge. I have called myself edge for six years. I believe whole heartedly in the philosophy presented by Minor Threat, I wear my X's etc.

I even really, really appreciate what hardcore has brought to music- the beauty of the badass breakdown. It's my favorite thing. I also really like a lot of the sxe hardcore lyrics. But as a trained singer, I cannot tolerate, nor do I enjoy, listening to boys torture their vocal chords. Plus, I can hardly hear my breakdowns over that crap.

But when I read the home page for this site, I was dismayed to read that you are preaching to interested parties that you must be into hardcore to be edge. "Straightedge is hardcore. It is about the music."

Actually, it was a movement founded by a response to the self-destructive behavior which was prevelant on the punk rock scene in the early 80's. Minor Threat was a punk band. While in current terms, we may call their sound "hardcore", in their day, they were punk rock. So to say that straightedge is about the music is incorrect. Straightedge hardcore bands' music is about the edge. But you don't have to listen to hardcore to be edge. I would say as long as you are actively involved in a scene, be it ska, punk, or hardcore, you are edge. There is still the sense of comradery, connection etc. Not all hardcore kids are edge, and not all edges have to be hardcore kids. It's as simple as that.

I also think it's ironic that you put this stipulation on being straightedge, that you MUST listen to hardcore or you're not edge. If you've never been in a pit, you're not edge. However, when Minor Threat gave a name to the movement, it entailed "don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck". And here you are telling people who ask about sex that it's up to them. Sure, go ahead, ignore a tenet that was one of the original founding principles, have casual sex if you want. But you HAVE to listen to hardcore or you're not edge.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that being edge and being simply drug free are not the same. There is a different feeling about being straight edge, and you do generally have to be part of the punk rock or hardcore scene. But I think most people who would call themselves edge would feel like posers if they weren't active in the scene. Anyway, I agree with a lot of what you all have to say, but it pisses me off to read about all of the elitist crap about being hardcore.

I think if having promiscuous sex is, according to many of you, left a personal decision and not a part of straight edge, then why not drinking, and why not smoking? And seriously though, why not the musical subculture?

And to any newbies out there, don't listen to these guys. No one is an "authority" on straight edge. No one is the straight-edge police, and no edge that you meet on the street is going to think less of you for not enjoying listening to boys scream and yell into a microphone. And if you're edge, you dont need to validate yourself with other people. If you are, you'll know.

Bring it.

flame_still_burns

07-12-2004, 08:15 PM

so is your question...

can i be straight edge and not like hardcore?

well, to me, that is akin to asking... can i be a christian and dislike the bible? hardcore music is the vehicle that carries the message for this movement, like it or not.

and actually minor threat was a hardcore band and defined themselves as such.

harDCoRECORDS was one of the first dischord slogans.

i could go on for pages about this... but it sounds like your mind is made up, and so is mine.

I would say as long as you are actively involved in a scene, be it ska, punk, or hardcore, you are edge.

this is a riddiculous statement... on one hand you say that you don't have to be into hardcore to be edge and on the other you say that you need to be into some sub-genre of the 'punk' scene to be.

there are millions of people out there who don't drink, smoke or do drugs... and the majority of them probably don't listen to hardcore or have any idea this exists...are they edge?

xsecx

07-12-2004, 08:38 PM

#1, your logic is flawed. you can't attack the concept of straight edge being a subculture within hardcore and then classify a need of it to be apart of a musical scene. you can't have it both ways. you just want to change the definition to fit what you want it to be. there aren't sxe emo bands. there aren't sxe ska bands. there aren't sxe punk bands. straight edge is and has always been a hardcore phenomenon.

#2. if you're going to try and live your life based on minor threat songs, then so be it. They may have named it, but they didn't keep it alive. The Minor Threat guys believed smoking a joint every once in a while and a beer occasionally were ok. They never intended straight edge to become what it is. Minor Threat didn't make it a movement. The people that did were the ones that came after and the vast majority of the people that came after cared more about drugs, alcohol and cigarettes than dictating sexual behavior.

#3, you do yourself an injustice by proclaiming "bring it" by saying that no one is an authority on straight edge. I hate to the be one to break it to you, but there are tons of authorities on straight edge. There are people who have spent years living, studying and being a major part of it.

xsecx

07-12-2004, 08:48 PM

and now. trial.

This Is Not a Trend
its so much more than just a slogan or a mark drawn on my hand
not a market to be exploited...or a fashion statement represented by a brand
its a feeling and it can't be sold
and I'm bound by my word
to stay true to what I know to be real
because no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge
so don't ever try to purchase me or downplay what I feel
because this commitment is not a passing phase...
it's for myself that I've made this choice
it's for life that I embrace the edge
it comes from deep in my heart - I live to oppose their intoxication
my source of inspiration is threatened now by a false embrace
to be diluted and absorbed without a second thought
but standing defiant I won't let it end
so don't ever try to purchase me or downplay what I feel
because this commitment is not a passing phase
don't plan for me to sell out - or expect to pull me down
these days will turn into years as you wait for us to fall
because we will rise!!!
this is not a trend!
times will change but my feelings won't fade
times will change but the spirit remains
times will change but the truth is the same...this is not a trend
this is not a trend.....GO!!!

the simple fact of the matter is that without hardcore you're missing the point.

gemmie312

07-12-2004, 09:13 PM

I actually wasn't asking you whether or not i'm edge because i dont like hardcore. I know i am. Which will probably piss alot of you off. However, I was questioning the statements so many people make on this site, their lack of reasoning behind them, and the hypocrisies within them.

"Minor Threat was the definitive Washington, D.C., hardcore punk band, setting the style for the straight-edge punk movement of the early '80s. " - AMG AllMusic guide
I consider hardcore punk a subgenre of punk. Hardcore nowadays is its own genre. This was, however, not the point of my original post.

More importantly, it says "the straight-edge punk movement", which is a widely held belief. Just look around online for straight edge, and most people, when defining it, refer to it as a punk movement.

ie: 'there are no actual rules. The lifestyle is entirely down to the discretion of those who choose it." - the BBC

"Straight Edge is a more philosophical offshoot of the punk movement." -http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/shell/5/sxe4life.htm#meaning

"Straight Edge is a more philosophical offshoot of the punk movement, a reaction to the hedonism and self-destruction that characterised punk." http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/preamble.html
etc. etc.

In my six years in the underground music world, which, granted, pales in comparison to your sixteen, I have had friends who were hardcore kids, friends who weren't, and friends who were edge. Not one of them, once, tried to tell me that because I don't like hardcore music, I was not edge.

I think straight-edge kids are the vehicle for the movement. Zines, word of mouth, etc. Music is a part of that. Not the whole.

gemmie312

07-12-2004, 09:20 PM

I completely agree with the lyrics you posted. I do. I said I like the lyrics. I like what it has done for music.

"I'm bound by my word
to stay true to what I know to be real
because no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge
so don't ever try to purchase me or downplay what I feel
because this commitment is not a passing phase..."

I think it's funny that you quote these lyrics, and then you try to tell me that you CAN tell me what it means to be straight edge.

Anyway, I have no problem with hardcore playing an important role in straight edge. I have a problem with saying that you aren't edge if you dont listen to hardcore.

xvunderx

07-12-2004, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312

Anyway, I have no problem with hardcore playing an important role in straight edge. I have a problem with saying that you aren't edge if you dont listen to hardcore.

But thatas the thing, it's not just about what you have on your stereo, it's about where and in what you participate. sXE is a subculture based in hardcore, and therefor to participate in sxe, you have to participate in hardcore.

It's not about taste, it's about participation, is every Mormon edge?

Also with out hardcore, how would edge stay alive? What holds it together, what spreads the world, and where can you go and pretty much guarantee you'll meet many other edge kids?

gemmie312

07-12-2004, 09:37 PM

Okay- read fully or don't reply.

I said I do think it has to do with the music, just not exclusively hardcore music. So no, I don't think every mormon was edge.

And to reply to the "how would edge stay alive" question, I am edge. I don't listen to hardcore. But I am very involved in the underground scene, i go to many shows each month. And I meet other edge kids at those shows all the time. I also met a quite a few at my university, so those are some places I can almost guarantee you can meet other sxe kids.

I do participate in straight edge. But I don't participate in hardcore. If you read the quotes I posted, ( I selected a choice few, for space saving's sake), it is a movement based in punk. Without hardcore, I keep it alive. It's the kids that keep it alive.

xsecx

07-12-2004, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
I completely agree with the lyrics you posted. I do. I said I like the lyrics. I like what it has done for music.

"I'm bound by my word
to stay true to what I know to be real
because no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge
so don't ever try to purchase me or downplay what I feel
because this commitment is not a passing phase..."

I think it's funny that you quote these lyrics, and then you try to tell me that you CAN tell me what it means to be straight edge.

Anyway, I have no problem with hardcore playing an important role in straight edge. I have a problem with saying that you aren't edge if you dont listen to hardcore.

it's not my fault you're trying to co-opt it for yourself. You can't talk about straight edge without hardcore. What you're talking about is making something to fit your likes and tastes.

you also might want to address my other points.

xsecx

07-12-2004, 09:40 PM

gemmie312

07-12-2004, 09:55 PM

1- If, as the dictionary says, co-opt means "to take for one's own use", then yes, I will, just as you have.

2. I do talk about straight edge without hardcore, so therefore, I can. Mind your own lyrics "no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge".

3. Your other points weren't worth replying to, because I believe your logic is flawed, so it is silly to fight about. I live my life based on the original three ideas of straight edge, so if you want to ignore the 'dont fuck' part, then aren't you "co-opting" that to fit your views? And I realize that you all think you're authorities on straight edge. I, too, have spent years living it, learning about it, and being a part of it. I don't claim to know everything about it or tell people if they are or aren't though.

4. Oh gee, you're right, I don't know what punk is!!! Actually, a few posts ago, I dismissed the argument about minor threat because that IS NOT THE POINT. I don't care if you think they were hardcore and i think they were punk. I supported my argument with quotes from various sources, and I don't think it is worth going back to. So henceforth, i will disregard comments with regard to whether or not minor threat was punk.

xsecx

07-13-2004, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by gemmie312
1- If, as the dictionary says, co-opt means "to take for one's own use", then yes, I will, just as you have.

you're changing a definition to suit yourself. It is not a reflection of the world as a whole, but rather your desire to hold onto a label that does not accurately describe you. So rather than come up with a term or label that does, you would rather take something and change it to fit you. That's weak.

2. I do talk about straight edge without hardcore, so therefore, I can. Mind your own lyrics "no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge".

You can't talk about one without the other. The hardcore portion of it is what makes straight edge unique and difference from any other drug free movement in history.

3. Your other points weren't worth replying to, because I believe your logic is flawed, so it is silly to fight about. I live my life based on the original three ideas of straight edge, so if you want to ignore the 'dont fuck' part, then aren't you "co-opting" that to fit your views? And I realize that you all think you're authorities on straight edge. I, too, have spent years living it, learning about it, and being a part of it. I don't claim to know everything about it or tell people if they are or aren't though.

Ones that can't be answered usually get labeld as "not worth replying to". The original ideas of straight edge were moderation. Do you live your life by those tenets? Do you have a beer every once in a while? A jack and coke? A joint once a month? Why, or why not?
I ignore the "don't fuck" part because it was part of a song. a part of a song that got the words "this isn't a set of rules" added to it when it was recorded a second time. You somehow think because minor threat recorded it, it's somehow gospel. It isn't. Minor Threat didn't intend for straight edge to become what it has. Ian has spoken out many many times aboutit becoming a movement. You have spent years living something called straight edge, but if you haven't been involved with it, then you haven't been. Hardcore is an essential part of the experience. I guess the irony is lost on you that you're using a label popularized by hardcore bands over 20 years, but you want to pretend hardcore isn't part of it.

4. Oh gee, you're right, I don't know what punk is!!! Actually, a few posts ago, I dismissed the argument about minor threat because that IS NOT THE POINT. I don't care if you think they were hardcore and i think they were punk. I supported my argument with quotes from various sources, and I don't think it is worth going back to. So henceforth, i will disregard comments with regard to whether or not minor threat was punk.

The point you're missing is that it doesn't matter what you or I think they were. They described themselves, in their own words as hardcore. As have many many bands that have come after them. Go read dance of days. Go read all ages. You know who all the people in all ages were? People involved in hardcore. Why is that?

xvunderx

07-13-2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by gemmie312
Okay- read fully or don't reply.

I said I do think it has to do with the music, just not exclusively hardcore music. So no, I don't think every mormon was edge.

And to reply to the "how would edge stay alive" question, I am edge. I don't listen to hardcore. But I am very involved in the underground scene, i go to many shows each month. And I meet other edge kids at those shows all the time. I also met a quite a few at my university, so those are some places I can almost guarantee you can meet other sxe kids.

I do participate in straight edge. But I don't participate in hardcore. If you read the quotes I posted, ( I selected a choice few, for space saving's sake), it is a movement based in punk. Without hardcore, I keep it alive. It's the kids that keep it alive.

I did read honey. Please tell me, what does punk or ska do for edge?

I have met other edge kids at an all dayer that was largely ska, or course they like me were hardcore kids, I met up with them all ovwer the place at variouse hardcore shows, and of course a huge sxe all dayer, (which was all hardcore bands).

A group of punks put on a hardcore all dayer, and lots of old punks were expected to attend. They added on their flyers etc that no smoking would be alowed inside at this show, as respect for all the edgers that were expected to attend. If punk was such a big part of edge, why was it only the hardcore show that was no smoking? and not all shows they put on?

Next up I have a few quotes from a book publised from an essay writen in 1993, buy an old punk who was a part of the scene through the 80's.....

"The late 80's and current times have whitnessed an extreamly large growth of straight edge hardcore ( they choose to use the word "hardcore" rather than "punk")"

"Many straight edgers have rejected punk because of its negative image, and now have their own subculture within the counter culture."

"Often straight edgers will aim critism at punk who are not straight."

"Today however instead of efforts to improve punk rock, they have their own scene that now needis improving. There has been a most visible rift in cities such as Boston and New York where straight edge has become clearly anti punk."

"The current trend for straight edge has been to seperate themselves from punk and create some very critical differences. If this trend cuntinues and a bigger rift occurs, the two may become compleatly incompatable."

(All taken from Craig O'Harra "Philosophy of Punk" on AK press)

Just like punks aren't hippies, and goths aren't punks, something grows out of something else, and becomes it's own entity. The section of this book is a great illustration of how something came out and evolved into it's own. It also shows just how much punks were (and still are) anti edge.

Hell there were even many a huge fight of edge v punks. edge kids in Boston would go as far as to wear X's on their heads so they knew who not to hit.

gemmie312

07-13-2004, 01:35 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I mean it.

I never said other music forms did anything for sxe.

And the smoking thing, well, I dont know. I live in LA most of the time so there's no smoking at any shows. Which doesn't explain why these kids didn't put it on the ads for their other shows, but I can't explain that, I don't know them, and I am aware that a majority of straight edges are in to hardcore, but i know quite a few arent.

As for your quotes (which I really appreciated, since it's actual support!!), most of them, I think, could support either side. I said in an earlier post that sxe came out of a rejection of the stereotypical punk lifestyle, which is the same as saying "Many straight edgers have rejected punk because of it's negative image". And of course its true that edges would aim criticism at kids who aren't, especially the kids they revolted against. And I never claimed, as I've said before, that punk did anything For straight edge. There isn't a big straight-edge-punk-music scene, but there is a large number of straight edges that infiltrate the punk scene, so it only makes sense that O'Harra would talk about the growth of straight edge hardcore. But if the two are so exclusive, then why didn't he just say straight-edge?

I'm really not here to pick a fight with you all, it just makes me sad to think so many edges are so elitist. You all keep saying that there arent "rules" to being edge when kids come on and ask questions about their diet, girlfriends, whatever. But yet if a kid prefers music that isn't hardcore, they're out? I dont agree. And I think if we share the same philosophy on life, it doesn't make sense to then fight about who gets the label. Each of my quotes specifically pointed out that straight edge is a "punk movement". I'm not saying, necessarily, that I'm right and you're all wrong. I'm saying that the two are not exclusive. And in my six years experience, that has been the case.

In the case that you are all going to continue to argue with me, I would like to request that you do a google search for all of the different variations of straight edge. And then, as a favor to everyone, start email-campaigning everyone out there who calls straight edge a punk movement. Tell them all to correctly state that it is a hardcore movement. For it is a widely held misconception. If they all start changing it, then maybe they're just sheep, but maybe they were actually wrong.

xsecx

07-13-2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I mean it.

I never said other music forms did anything for sxe.

And the smoking thing, well, I dont know. I live in LA most of the time so there's no smoking at any shows. Which doesn't explain why these kids didn't put it on the ads for their other shows, but I can't explain that, I don't know them, and I am aware that a majority of straight edges are in to hardcore, but i know quite a few arent.

As for your quotes (which I really appreciated, since it's actual support!!), most of them, I think, could support either side. I said in an earlier post that sxe came out of a rejection of the stereotypical punk lifestyle, which is the same as saying "Many straight edgers have rejected punk because of it's negative image". And of course its true that edges would aim criticism at kids who aren't, especially the kids they revolted against. And I never claimed, as I've said before, that punk did anything For straight edge. There isn't a big straight-edge-punk-music scene, but there is a large number of straight edges that infiltrate the punk scene, so it only makes sense that O'Harra would talk about the growth of straight edge hardcore. But if the two are so exclusive, then why didn't he just say straight-edge?

I'm really not here to pick a fight with you all, it just makes me sad to think so many edges are so elitist. You all keep saying that there arent "rules" to being edge when kids come on and ask questions about their diet, girlfriends, whatever. But yet if a kid prefers music that isn't hardcore, they're out? I dont agree. And I think if we share the same philosophy on life, it doesn't make sense to then fight about who gets the label. Each of my quotes specifically pointed out that straight edge is a "punk movement". I'm not saying, necessarily, that I'm right and you're all wrong. I'm saying that the two are not exclusive. And in my six years experience, that has been the case.

In the case that you are all going to continue to argue with me, I would like to request that you do a google search for all of the different variations of straight edge. And then, as a favor to everyone, start email-campaigning everyone out there who calls straight edge a punk movement. Tell them all to correctly state that it is a hardcore movement. For it is a widely held misconception. If they all start changing it, then maybe they're just sheep, but maybe they were actually wrong.

it's not elitist to call a dog a dog. or a cat a cat. straight edge is a defined thing. It's not some label floating around the world that is meaningless and can be attached to anyone or anything. For anything to have meaning, it must have integrity. For there to be integrity, especially within a subculture, there must be a clear definition. At what point is anyone discouraging anyone from doing anything other than calling themselves something accurate? How am I excluding anyone? Am I stopping anyone from liking hardcore? I'm trying to make sure straight edge still means something. That it has integrity and strength throughout the ages. When you have everyone changing it to fit their own personal needs and images, it loses everything. The lines become so blurred that straight edge means nothing. That what made it so exciting and inviting to now 3+ generations of kids will be meaningless because it will have been copted and turned into a meaningless pile of shit.

gemmie312

07-13-2004, 01:51 PM

We're talking in circles. You say I am "co-opting" which I look up, post a verbatim definition of, and you say i'm "changing the definition to suit yourself". That is the definition of co-opt. If, since you were unclear, you meant I was changing the definition of straight edge, here is one site's definition:

"To be SxE you must not ever consume cigarettes, alcohol, narcotics, or engage in promiscous sex (having sex with someone you don't truly love) . It is not a gang- there are no members of Straightedge, only believers. You don't have to listen to HxC or punk music, or draw an X on your hand when you go to a show, you just have to be true to yourself about where you stand and not participate in the apathy caused by drug-use or having sex with someone that you don't truly love. It's all about caring for yourself and others." - straightedgeonline.org

I think this quote addresses each of your points. So I don't need to. You say I'm changing the definition, well here's a definition lifted right from another site. You say you can't be edge without hardcore, they say you can. They say "dont fuck" counts, you say it doesnt. And don't start the Ian said it wasnt a "set of rules" thing, i know he has said that, and I don't live my life that way strictly because of a set of lyrics. I'm sure each of us has more than one reason for being edge and for obeying each tenet. However, unless I'm wrong here (and if I am, please point me to the source), the song labeled the movement. The song is where we get "straight edge" from, so maybe you all should come up with a new name for the movement where you dont use drugs but you are cool with promsicuity. (Which sounds like the same thing as drug-free, versus "straight edge" which differs in that it is also against promiscuity).
So, like I said to xvunderx, start the email campaign to all the rest of them.

xvunderx

07-13-2004, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I mean it.

I never said other music forms did anything for sxe.

And the smoking thing, well, I dont know. I live in LA most of the time so there's no smoking at any shows. Which doesn't explain why these kids didn't put it on the ads for their other shows, but I can't explain that, I don't know them, and I am aware that a majority of straight edges are in to hardcore, but i know quite a few arent.

As for your quotes (which I really appreciated, since it's actual support!!), most of them, I think, could support either side. I said in an earlier post that sxe came out of a rejection of the stereotypical punk lifestyle, which is the same as saying "Many straight edgers have rejected punk because of it's negative image". And of course its true that edges would aim criticism at kids who aren't, especially the kids they revolted against. And I never claimed, as I've said before, that punk did anything For straight edge. There isn't a big straight-edge-punk-music scene, but there is a large number of straight edges that infiltrate the punk scene, so it only makes sense that O'Harra would talk about the growth of straight edge hardcore. But if the two are so exclusive, then why didn't he just say straight-edge?

I'm really not here to pick a fight with you all, it just makes me sad to think so many edges are so elitist. You all keep saying that there arent "rules" to being edge when kids come on and ask questions about their diet, girlfriends, whatever. But yet if a kid prefers music that isn't hardcore, they're out? I dont agree. And I think if we share the same philosophy on life, it doesn't make sense to then fight about who gets the label. Each of my quotes specifically pointed out that straight edge is a "punk movement". I'm not saying, necessarily, that I'm right and you're all wrong. I'm saying that the two are not exclusive. And in my six years experience, that has been the case.

In the case that you are all going to continue to argue with me, I would like to request that you do a google search for all of the different variations of straight edge. And then, as a favor to everyone, start email-campaigning everyone out there who calls straight edge a punk movement. Tell them all to correctly state that it is a hardcore movement. For it is a widely held misconception. If they all start changing it, then maybe they're just sheep, but maybe they were actually wrong.

The thing that has to be understood about my quotes here is that nothing happens over night. For example Goth grew out of punk, for a while there was a blur, it was part of punk, for example Siouxsie Sioux, but it's pretty obviouse thats not where it stayed.

Hardcore and straight edge didn't spontaniously appear, it grew out of punk, as a reaction to punk, but it evolved much like goth and became it's own seperate entity. thats what we are seeing here with Craig O'Harra, he was around for this and saw it , and to an extent here documented it.

You look around on the internet you'll find sites like toefur and straightedge.com, they are incorect. Just because soemthing is on the internet doesn't make it well researched or true.

The thing is maybe there is something new happening, but it isn't sxe, sxe is a specific thing, it's not elitist to call a tree a tree, and say that grass is not a tree. The sad thing is people are too lazy to inovate, they just co-opt terms and render them useless. Punk hasn't done anything for sxe in over a decade, ska has never done anything for sxe.

A ska kid claiming edge is simply incorect. just like if I were to lable myself SHARP. I'm against raceism, but i sure ain't a skin.

Alot of people don't look past Minor threat, they look at where they were back in 81 and don't even think to look past that, and to where it is today. This site was started as a true sxe community, and as a way to counteract certain other sites which have their facts askew, we are doing what we can here.

Maybe there is/will be another drug free subculture, and more power to them all. They aren't edge, but that doesnt make the commitment any less real, or the bonds any less real. It just means that they are somethingdifferent, and it's time people got bold, stoped being lazy and started shit. They need to stop stealing from decades of other peoples hard work and dedication.

xvunderx

07-13-2004, 01:58 PM

xsecx

07-13-2004, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
We're talking in circles. You say I am "co-opting" which I look up, post a verbatim definition of, and you say i'm "changing the definition to suit yourself". That is the definition of co-opt. If, since you were unclear, you meant I was changing the definition of straight edge, here is one site's definition:

"To be SxE you must not ever consume cigarettes, alcohol, narcotics, or engage in promiscous sex (having sex with someone you don't truly love) . It is not a gang- there are no members of Straightedge, only believers. You don't have to listen to HxC or punk music, or draw an X on your hand when you go to a show, you just have to be true to yourself about where you stand and not participate in the apathy caused by drug-use or having sex with someone that you don't truly love. It's all about caring for yourself and others." - straightedgeonline.org

I think this quote addresses each of your points. So I don't need to. You say I'm changing the definition, well here's a definition lifted right from another site. You say you can't be edge without hardcore, they say you can. They say "dont fuck" counts, you say it doesnt. And don't start the Ian said it wasnt a "set of rules" thing, i know he has said that, and I don't live my life that way strictly because of a set of lyrics. I'm sure each of us has more than one reason for being edge and for obeying each tenet. However, unless I'm wrong here (and if I am, please point me to the source), the song labeled the movement. The song is where we get "straight edge" from, so maybe you all should come up with a new name for the movement where you dont use drugs but you are cool with promsicuity. (Which sounds like the same thing as drug-free, versus "straight edge" which differs in that it is also against promiscuity).
So, like I said to xvunderx, start the email campaign to all the rest of them.

straightedgeonline.org is run by a kid who at last conversation had never actually been to a show or met a straight edge person. An inaccurate definition is essentially pointless. The simple fact that your "defense" is a definition that says people can't have ever smoked or drank.

do me a favor. go read the lyrics of straight edge. find where in those lyrics sex is mentioned. then go read the lyrics for out of step. and then find a wall a beat your head against it.

There is a huge difference between saying that sex, which is a gigantic can of worms, has something to do with straight edge and saying it's a good idea. Murder isn't related to straight edge. Paying your taxes. Walking in cross walks. Helping little old ladies. Not cussing. These are things that are good/bad but that doesn't make. What makes sex promiscious? Do you break edge if you kiss someone? Do you break edge if you make out? Where's the line? Are hand jobs ok? What about oral sex? What if you fall in love with a one night stand, is that ok?

xvunderx

07-13-2004, 02:01 PM

xsecx

07-13-2004, 02:17 PM

and just to make it easy for you:

Main Entry: co-opt
Pronunciation: kO-'äpt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin cooptare, from co- + optare to choose
1 a : to choose or elect as a member b : to appoint as a colleague or assistant
2 a : to take into a group (as a faction, movement, or culture) : ABSORB, ASSIMILATE <the students are co-opted by a system they serve even in their struggle against it -- A. C. Danto> b : TAKE OVER, APPROPRIATE

I'm using definition number 2 in terms of you.

gemmie312

07-13-2004, 02:18 PM

Isn't the new something else the hardcore straight edge mentality? You said yourself it grew out of punk, just as goth did. You said that once goth became its own entity, and it was no longer punk, you had to call it something else, so now we call it goth. Along the same lines, and i'm using your own argument here, if straight edge started as a punk thing, and has since grown into a hardcore thing, then shouldn't the hardcore thing not call itself straight edge?

and to xsecx- there's no need for violence. or belligerence.

xsecx

07-13-2004, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
Isn't the new something else the hardcore straight edge mentality? You said yourself it grew out of punk, just as goth did. You said that once goth became its own entity, and it was no longer punk, you had to call it something else, so now we call it goth. Along the same lines, and i'm using your own argument here, if straight edge started as a punk thing, and has since grown into a hardcore thing, then shouldn't the hardcore thing not call itself straight edge?

and to xsecx- there's no need for violence. or belligerence.

that's the point you're missing. straight edge started as a reaction to punk. hardcore was a reaction to punk. Every band that has had influence within straight edge is a hardcore band. how is that a new thing?

who's calling for violence? you don't know what you're talking about. the song straight edge makes zero mention of sex. yet, you claimed that it did. you're wrong. the song that did however was out of step. that was also the song that makes the comment that it wasn't a set of rules, thus contradicting you yet again.

gemmie312

07-13-2004, 02:36 PM

If the two were individual offshoots of punk, then why now must you combine the two?

And i am certain that xsecx said that I should go bang my head against a wall. there's no need for that. i am trying to have a civilized discussion, and at this point I'm almost banging my head on a wall for even trying to argue with you on this. It's like trying to convince someone who believes in god that god doesn't exist. there's no changing your mind.

I never claimed the song "straight edge" said "dont fuck", i said it labeled the movement, and unfortunately, i incorporated the commonly associated lyric from "out of step".

And if it isn't a set of rules, which I don't think i've ever called it here, i have referred to them as tenets. beliefs. etc. then why are you all allowed to institute a rule of only hardcore kids' involvement? I refer back to the lyrics you posted previously:
"no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge".

So i guess I can stop trying to inform you and/or compromise. And you can stop telling the rest of these kids.

Maybe a more fitting opening page would be a short description of the widely held definition of sxe, and then the song you posted. Then you're not setting up any rules.

xsecx

07-13-2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by gemmie312
If the two were individual offshoots of punk, then why now must you combine the two?

And i am certain that xsecx said that I should go bang my head against a wall. there's no need for that. i am trying to have a civilized discussion, and at this point I'm almost banging my head on a wall for even trying to argue with you on this. It's like trying to convince someone who believes in god that god doesn't exist. there's no changing your mind.

I never claimed the song "straight edge" said "dont fuck", i said it labeled the movement, and unfortunately, i incorporated the commonly associated lyric from "out of step".

And if it isn't a set of rules, which I don't think i've ever called it here, i have referred to them as tenets. beliefs. etc. then why are you all allowed to institute a rule of only hardcore kids' involvement? I refer back to the lyrics you posted previously:
"no one else can tell me what it means to be straight edge".

So i guess I can stop trying to inform you and/or compromise. And you can stop telling the rest of these kids.

Maybe a more fitting opening page would be a short description of the widely held definition of sxe, and then the song you posted. Then you're not setting up any rules.

How much history of things have you actually read? Straight edge and hardcore have been joined at the hip from the beginning. They were all hardcore bands, just some of them were straight edge in addition to. There weren't punk straight edge bands. There still aren't. There is no changing my mind because I'm right. I have been involved with straight edge since the summer of 1988. I have spent most of my adult life working to further it. To make it still mean something.

For some reason, which is not apparent to me or the other people here you've decided to take on a label that doesn't accurately describe yourself. You don't like hardcore. Yet you call yourself a term which gives people that impression. Along with the impression that you don'' smoke or drink or get high.

And the lyrics, you keep posting, of a band you've never heard of is talking about the trendiness of it. Not that you can't define it. Not that it isn't something real. That it is more than a fashion statement. That it's a scene, a movement and lifestyle that must be fought for and maintained. The widely held definition of straight edge is the one held by the people here. the only people that hold your definition are ones who's only interaction with it is over the computer and over the internet. That's the reason those words are there. And that's the reason those words are staying there.