Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

[atXdawnXweXburn]

im 100% ready to let it die. this is the most redundant and useless thread ever.

[SgtD]

why would that be a good thing to let the thread die?

[straightXed]

Incorrect. In your perception of sXe, it's wrong. In my lifestyle, I choose not to partake in alcohol... Not good for me. Something I strongly abstain from.
And actually... The bible doesn't mention Christ Himself drinking wine -- he handed it to his disciples at the last supper to represent Him. *shrug*

In a logical perception based on what straightedge is, not what i try to make it be. Not only do you want to change the meaning of christianity you want to change what straightedge has stood for since its inception too. You are exactly the type of person straightedge can do without.





Actually, you are COMPLETELY wrong about this concept. WE ALL fall short of the glory of God, and only by faith in Christ do we enter the kingdom of God. After salvation, we are still sinners -- we are meant to strive to be Christlike, not perfect -- because it is impossible for a mere human (as in human... with a human soul, don't throw the "jesus was a human" shit in my face, either). You do not go to hell for your sins, you "go to hell" for your decision to deny Christ and what He lived for, and to deny that He was the son of God.
I am Christian. I accepted Christ. I am a sinner. I will not go to hell for my sins -- I will be convicted for them otherwise.


If you know its a sin why to you continue to do it, why do you ignore the teachings and examples set by your god? You are a completely shit christian. And according to the bible those that continue to in this direction of anger shall not inherit the kingdom of god. Why aren't you striving harder to be christlike? And how is jesus not perfect? And you are denying christ by not striving to follow his example, you know anger is wrong and a sin yet you completely ignore your gods advice on this because it doesn't quite fit your personal ideals.




No, the way I live my life actually is in complete agreeance with sXe lifestyle -- my being Christian doesn't negate that, even though you feel it does... You don't have a very clear understanding of Christianity. A very, very obscure understanding. (Your immediate reaction is this = "you don't have a clear understanding of sXe living", but actually I do... I see where you are coming from, but you're not listening to what I'm really saying...)

Well actually i am responding to everything you are saying whilst you have continually ignored what i am saying. You aren't in complete agreeance with sxe if you are in complete agreeance with christianity, the problem is you can't be both without contradicting yourself. You aren't dealing with the facts that you are changing things to suit yourself. You obviously don't see where i'm comming from at all as you continually miss the point because you are way to blinkered to see it.





I used to look at Christianity very critically, as I moved on to other faiths, (mostly occult), and then just decided that I didn't believe in God anymore.
Once I TRULY accepted Christ and began to have a REAL understanding of what He stood for, that's when things started becoming apparent to me. My experiences in life, seeing His work in my own life, is what makes me Christian.
My shortcomings are what make me human. My anger, my rage -- whatever the fuck it is -- I am imperfect, and I know it. And maybe being sXe has some sinful aspect to it -- SO THE FUCK WHAT?

Well the idea is not to sin.



Did I ever ONCE say I was PERFECT? Fuck no. I'm not perfect. No one who is not of divine spirit is capable of that (i.e. Christ being the only one with a divine spirit, the human imbodiment of God)

The divine spirit who was put on earth as an example for you.



But I can tell you one fucking thing, though. It's better for me to be sXe than for me to be a fucking druggie like I used to be. And if loving hardcore and being a part of the scene -- anger, rage and all, is in a manner sinful, so be it. But atleast I'm fucking healthy nowadays, and I actually enjoy life and love myself.

You love yourself? Oh dude.


How can you argue with that? sXe lifestyle did a lot of great things for me. The scene gave me something to be a part of that was not what everyone else was doing -- an outlet for me instead of drugs. Don't you think God would rather me be expressing my blind rage at a hardcore show than putting meth up my nose?

So something actively counter to christianity gave you what christianity couldn't, the contradiction deepens with every post you make. I think god would rather you found ways to find peace rather that don't include actively and knowingly sinning, i think its your job as a christian to get as far away from these sins as possible. I'm not saying being sxe isn't better than being a fuck up but its still something that contradicts your faith and religion on many levels. Rather than just saying so fucking what, you should look at ways to live your life more like christ because at the moment that attitude is completely ignoring what christianity is about.


Don't you get it?

I get it, but it doesn't stop it being a contradiction, anyway, i thought you were done with this argument, see its just another example of how the things you post don't ring true.

[straightXed]

I'm perfectly willing to let it die...

Agree?

If thats true why did you say you were done with it and then come back and post again? Is it because you want the last word? Because its not like you raised any valid points.

[xriseupx]

I've dropped this. As in... I'm done with it. I didn't even read your last post(s), and I'm not going to.
I'm letting it die.

[xsecx]

I've dropped this. As in... I'm done with it. I didn't even read your last post(s), and I'm not going to.
I'm letting it die.

seriously weak.

[xsecx]

Incorrect. In your perception of sXe, it's wrong. In my lifestyle, I choose not to partake in alcohol... Not good for me. Something I strongly abstain from.
And actually... The bible doesn't mention Christ Himself drinking wine -- he handed it to his disciples at the last supper to represent Him. *shrug*



Why do you strongly abstain from it? Do you think alcohol is something that everyone should drink? Do you think that alcohol is something that the world would be better off without? Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's about complete sobriety. It isn't about moderation or even acceptance that drinking is healthy or good for anyone. Your perception of straight edge is one thing and then the word games you play to try and dance around calling jesus wrong is another.

[xriseupx]

Why do you strongly abstain from it?
Former addict... I don't like it. It lends to a less healthy lifestyle.


Do you think alcohol is something that everyone should drink?
Absolutely not... I don't have to like that people drink alcohol, because I don't like it. I just don't spend too much time worrying about what everyone else is putting into their bodies. I'm concerned with *me*.



Do you think that alcohol is something that the world would be better off without?
Absolutely... I wish that alcohol didn't exist. It doesn't matter though, users will always find other ways to ruin themselves.


Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's about complete sobriety. It isn't about moderation or even acceptance that drinking is healthy or good for anyone. Your perception of straight edge is one thing and then the word games you play to try and dance around calling jesus wrong is another.

You're right. sXe is complete sobriety and an extreme stance on substances. I personally can't find a reference where Christ actually consumed wine Himself. All I can find is that he gave it to His disciples at the last supper as a representation of His blood.

I answered your questions... Which is fine... But I won't partake in the argument, though. It's a waste of your time and mine, because we both obviously have very strongly rooted beliefs and opinions that have some differences, and we are both obviously very stubborn. You're just as argumentative as I am. So... We're getting absolutely nowhere in this argument.
*shrug*
Again... Civil conversation's cool... We all need to chill out, including me. So... I'm letting the topic die. I didn't mind answering your questions... But I won't argue anymore.

[xsecx]

Absolutely not... I don't have to like that people drink alcohol, because I don't like it. I just don't spend too much time worrying about what everyone else is putting into their bodies. I'm concerned with *me*.


You're concerned with you, but then have an opinion on the alcohol consumption of others.



Absolutely... I wish that alcohol didn't exist. It doesn't matter though, users will always find other ways to ruin themselves.


It matters in this context though. You just contradicted yourself when you talked about how you had no problem with Jesus drinking alcohol. You have a moral aversion to alcohol existing.



You're right. sXe is complete sobriety and an extreme stance on substances. I personally can't find a reference where Christ actually consumed wine Himself. All I can find is that he gave it to His disciples at the last supper as a representation of His blood.


wedding at galea. verse where jesus compares himself with John the Baptist where he says jesus drinks wine and John does not. Your beliefs that any amount of alcohol consumption is wrong is in direct opposition to jesus's words, teachings and actions. This same issue exists with people who are vegetarians for moral reasons. You have a moral dilema when your personal morality is contradictory to that of someone you view as perfect and god.




I answered your questions... Which is fine... But I won't partake in the argument, though. It's a waste of your time and mine, because we both obviously have very strongly rooted beliefs and opinions that have some differences, and we are both obviously very stubborn. You're just as argumentative as I am. So... We're getting absolutely nowhere in this argument.
*shrug*
Again... Civil conversation's cool... We all need to chill out, including me. So... I'm letting the topic die. I didn't mind answering your questions... But I won't argue anymore.

Yeah but my opinion is rooted in actual biblical scripture and research, not how I personally feel about the subject. Do you think you can disagree with god? Do you think can, was or will ever be wrong about something?

[xriseupx]

That's cool dude. I don't really care, man... Awesome that you found scripture where Christ consumed wine. He didn't abuse it. It wasn't recreational as I stated.
The world has turned into a shittier place since then. I wish there weren't psychoactives, including alcohol.
Hell, even grape juice contains a very miniscule level of alcohol... Do you now have a problem with grape juice?
Just how far does this go before you don't consume anything at all? Foods, water, anything... I mean, how do you know if your water doesn't contain some chemicals that you strongly hate?
But, dude... Argue all you want... Keep on... As I've said, again and again... I'll answer questions... I'll explain views... But I won't argue anymore. Go break your leg in 5 places and tell the hospital you refuse painkillers because your edge... That'll be great.
It's a waste of time. I won't argue.
As my last 3 entries have been, I won't argue... And my future entries will not be arguments either. So keep on...

[xsecx]

That's cool dude. I don't really care, man... Awesome that you found scripture where Christ consumed wine. He didn't abuse it. It wasn't recreational as I stated.
The world has turned into a shittier place since then. I wish there weren't psychoactives, including alcohol.
Hell, even grape juice contains a very miniscule level of alcohol... Do you now have a problem with grape juice?
Just how far does this go before you don't consume anything at all? Foods, water, anything... I mean, how do you know if your water doesn't contain some chemicals that you strongly hate?
But, dude... Argue all you want... Keep on... As I've said, again and again... I'll answer questions... I'll explain views... But I won't argue anymore. Go break your leg in 5 places and tell the hospital you refuse painkillers because your edge... That'll be great.
It's a waste of time. I won't argue.
As my last 3 entries have been, I won't argue... And my future entries will not be arguments either. So keep on...

Does it bother you at all, that you make statements, you're wrong about those statements and then just carry on like it doesn't matter? If you actually cared about your religion in a literal sense, wouldn't you want to actually be religious rather than just saying you are? So instead of looking at what's actually being talked about you try and shift attention so you don't have to talk about the problem at hand. You think the drinking alcohol is wrong on any level. You also in turn think that god is flawed and wrong. Which is something he can't be.

[xriseupx]

I've already tried to show you what I truly believe and why, and to fully explain all of it would take a lot of time that I don't feel like wasting on someone who's going to combat literally everything I say to the core. I mean, it doesn't matter what I say -- even if I have a valid point, you consider everything invalid.
You really wouldn't understand unless you had been Christian yourself -- not part of "organized Christianity", but in a personal relationship with Christ... You're not going to be able to grasp the concept by what you've read and what you've been told. It's through experience that you learn the truth.

I mean, I'm really not here to try to convert you. In other post, I've seen sXe people concerned about Christianity coming into sXe and hardcore and trying to change it, but that's not what I'm trying to do at all...

So we disagree. We've already clearly pointed this out. Obviously nothing is going to change that, and we obviously both believe we're right and the other is wrong...

So can you tell me the point of arguing any further? There is none. It's still a waste of time.
I'm still not arguing this point with you. Your opinion doesn't change my stance -- it doesn't change what makes me Christian, it doesn't change what makes me edge. I'll never see you face to face, we have absolutely no effect on eachother's lives and views.
I mean, this honestly can go nowhere, especially in a mere message board.

The scene that I've become a part of is not entirely Christian, but they're not so militantly anti-Christian either. Not everyone is like you, and not every scene is like yours.

The end, dude. This is honestly my last post on this topic. It'll be a waste of your time to respond to this, but if you feel that you must have the last word, so be it... I don't really care... I won't be reading it.

Later.

[xsecx]

I've already tried to show you what I truly believe and why, and to fully explain all of it would take a lot of time that I don't feel like wasting on someone who's going to combat literally everything I say to the core. I mean, it doesn't matter what I say -- even if I have a valid point, you consider everything invalid.
You really wouldn't understand unless you had been Christian yourself -- not part of "organized Christianity", but in a personal relationship with Christ... You're not going to be able to grasp the concept by what you've read and what you've been told. It's through experience that you learn the truth.

I mean, I'm really not here to try to convert you. In other post, I've seen sXe people concerned about Christianity coming into sXe and hardcore and trying to change it, but that's not what I'm trying to do at all...

So we disagree. We've already clearly pointed this out. Obviously nothing is going to change that, and we obviously both believe we're right and the other is wrong...

So can you tell me the point of arguing any further? There is none. It's still a waste of time.
I'm still not arguing this point with you. Your opinion doesn't change my stance -- it doesn't change what makes me Christian, it doesn't change what makes me edge. I'll never see you face to face, we have absolutely no effect on eachother's lives and views.
I mean, this honestly can go nowhere, especially in a mere message board.

The scene that I've become a part of is not entirely Christian, but they're not so militantly anti-Christian either. Not everyone is like you, and not every scene is like yours.

The end, dude. This is honestly my last post on this topic. It'll be a waste of your time to respond to this, but if you feel that you must have the last word, so be it... I don't really care... I won't be reading it.

Later.


awesome dude, thanks for diverting again and not actually discussing the issue at hand and using the standard "you wouldn't understand this unless you were christian, which you can't be because it creates a logical paradox' cop-out. Enjoy living a lie and if it exists, I'm sure I'll be seeing you in hell!

[yaoull]

Hi,
Woaw.... i haven't read all of the replys... but the only thing i can say it's:

Some of you sXy boy are DAMN RELIGIOUS !
I don't speak about the christians beliefs... I speak about your way to understand the SraightEdge !
"don't do that and do this.." " if you drink one time alcolh so your are not sXe.. " O_o .. well i still prefere some dumbass evangelist speech..

sXe is not about LAW, not about thing do DO or NOT : it's about Love of Life !
It's a spirit, don't be blind just because somone enfreints one of the sacred law XXX.. are you so blind to not see what the law reach? (respect of life, community, enjoy being free) you prefere break this for the law ownself?
scuse but you are not sXe, just a religious whos find a new toy.

Our combat is not again ethanol molecule, it's about self-destruction, selfrespect and no escape.

I try to not imagine how you judge for the sexual meaning of the third X.
Let's be wise, and define sXe by what it means TO DO, TO SEEK... and not what it means to DO NOT..

So respect christians -or other religous-, sXe is not a politix mouvement and not a religious purpose: each people can wear the pant want if it's correct with the sXe seeking.
( and if you want know, to my mind real christians dude are more sXe than you.. looks jesus, and he was not religious like you about his same feeling to you to stay right with the respect of life and other. )
the ennemi of the sXe mouvement is to sacrilize the triple "X"

[ scuse my english, i'm french and not a great studient ;) ]

[xsecx]

Hi,
Woaw.... i haven't read all of the replys... but the only thing i can say it's:

Some of you sXy boy are DAMN RELIGIOUS !
I don't speak about the christians beliefs... I speak about your way to understand the SraightEdge !
"don't do that and do this.." " if you drink one time alcolh so your are not sXe.. " O_o .. well i still prefere some dumbass evangelist speech..

sXe is not about LAW, not about thing do DO or NOT : it's about Love of Life !
It's a spirit, don't be blind just because somone enfreints one of the sacred law XXX.. are you so blind to not see what the law reach? (respect of life, community, enjoy being free) you prefere break this for the law ownself?
scuse but you are not sXe, just a religious whos find a new toy.

Our combat is not again ethanol molecule, it's about self-destruction, selfrespect and no escape.

I try to not imagine how you judge for the sexual meaning of the third X.
Let's be wise, and define sXe by what it means TO DO, TO SEEK... and not what it means to DO NOT..

So respect christians -or other religous-, sXe is not a politix mouvement and not a religious purpose: each people can wear the pant want if it's correct with the sXe seeking.
( and if you want know, to my mind real christians dude are more sXe than you.. looks jesus, and he was not religious like you about his same feeling to you to stay right with the respect of life and other. )
the ennemi of the sXe mouvement is to sacrilize the triple "X"

[ scuse my english, i'm french and not a great studient ;) ]


except that straight edge is largely defined on what someone doesn't do and the reasons behind it. Straight edge is very much a political movement, what makes you think that it isn't?

[yaoull]

If it's a healthy practice why are you against it and think it's wrong?

.. sorry dude but indeed wine is good for health.. True.

The poison is in the consumption. ( like a lot of stuff in fact.. )

You don't want that. well fine, but what's the use to crutch those who drink some of wine if it's good and they keep in mind to consume this weel ?

[xsecx]

.. sorry dude but indeed wine is good for health.. True.

The poison is in the consumption. ( like a lot of stuff in fact.. )

You don't want that. well fine, but what's the use to crutch those who drink some of wine if it's good and they keep in mind to consume this weel ?

Because wine doesn't have to be consumed to get the health benefits from it. It's the grape that is given the benefit, not the alcohol. Most studies state pretty clearly that it's a benefit for those that already drink alcohol but that there is no reason to start drinking it because there is nothing unique about wine.

[yaoull]

except that straight edge is largely defined on what someone doesn't do and the reasons behind it.

except that straight edge is largely defined on what someone doesn't do ---> NO.
.. and the reasons behind it. --> YES !


Straight edge is very much a political movement, what makes you think that it isn't?
The principal political mouvement of sXe is to don't fall in any extrems.
That why i turn my sentence like it.

[xsecx]

except that straight edge is largely defined on what someone doesn't do ---> NO.
.. and the reasons behind it. --> YES !


how isn't it? It's a movement centered around abstince. It's very much around what substances we don't do.



The principal political mouvement of sXe is to don't fall in any extrems.
That why i turn my sentence like it.
Straight edge is very extreme though? It isn't about moderation at all.

[yaoull]

Because wine doesn't have to be consumed to get the health benefits from it. It's the grape that is given the benefit, not the alcohol. Most studies state pretty clearly that it's a benefit for those that already drink alcohol but that there is no reason to start drinking it because there is nothing unique about wine.

so what?..
Prefer you bannish a sXe because he drink sometime alcoolh but are ine the way of sxe ?
.. i can understant it..
sXe is a way of life, not way do don't. Keep mind clear about priority of this mouvement.
i'm afraid by lawish speech: the straight of the edges are not defenes by the repsect of lawing edge.. but like you said : the reasons behind those. what conducts this laws

[xsecx]

so what?..
Prefer you bannish a sXe because he drink sometime alcoolh but are ine the way of sxe ?
.. i can understant it..
sXe is a way of life, not way do don't. Keep mind clear about priority of this mouvement.
i'm afraid by lawish speech: the straight of the edges are not defenes by the repsect of lawing edge.. but like you said : the reasons behind those. what conducts this laws

because if you don't you have something with no meaning. It's commonly agreed that straight edge means no smoking, no drinking and no drugs. If you do any, you're not edge. That's what the actual definition is. It's what makes it that way of life.

[yaoull]

Straight edge is very extreme though? It isn't about moderation at all.
( we spoken about politik. anyway. )
Straight edge is very RADICAL, not extrem lawish. Radical is about edge in the mind.
It's easy to contourn mindedges and respect lawedge : cause everyone see you about law, in mind you can stay hypocrit.
i don't like your love for the law and tired by religious speech.. make your way, but look how you didn't take part of what the sXe wanted to bring.. Build your church alone dude.

it's funny cause you stand about your Left politikmembership but you acting like a Right.


It's a movement centered around abstince.
ok.
I believed that I was at the Straigh edges.

see ya. ( .. make me out of me.. it's all that you do retain about sXe?.. hardcore leave mouvement punk for centered our life around abstince...!! crazy.. build your church. )

rise up dude!

[xsecx]

( we spoken about politik. anyway. )
Straight edge is very RADICAL, not extrem lawish. Radical is about edge in the mind.
It's easy to contourn mindedges and respect lawedge : cause everyone see you about law, in mind you can stay hypocrit.
i don't like your love for the law and tired by religious speech.. make your way, but look how you didn't take part of what the sXe wanted to bring.. Build your church alone dude.

it's funny cause you stand about your Left politikmembership but you acting like a Right.


horrible english aside, you're not making sense. How is it not "extreme lawish"? Edge is as much what you don't do as it what you believe. YOu can believe that drinking is wrong and still drink, you're not edge. This has to do with defintions, not "religious speech". For something to be, it has to be defined and compared to that criteria. That isn't being lawish or building a church, that's the reality of any movement or subculture.



ok.
I believed that I was at the Straigh edges.

see ya. ( .. make me out of me.. it's all that you do retain about sXe?.. hardcore leave mouvement punk for centered our life around abstince...!! crazy.. build your church. )

rise up dude!

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[yaoull]

If you do any, you're not edge. That's what the actual definition is. It's what makes it that way of life.

poor guy..

( i don't do that but my way of life is really different, my definition are not about thing to not do and judgement to do... your eye fix on the laws blind you heart and mind: you respect law but still are an ennemi of sXe)

Be a sxe don't mean acting like them, it is a reasoning.
monkey can stand like human, repeat the "good straigh edge is :...", do this... but don't know for what..

[xsecx]

poor guy..

( i don't do that but my way of life is really different, my definition are not about thing to not do and judgement to do... your eye fix on the laws blind you heart and mind: you respect law but still are an ennemi of sXe)

Be a sxe don't mean acting like them, it is a reasoning.
monkey can stand like human, repeat the "good straigh edge is :...", do this... but don't know for what..

it is about reasoning, but there are still things you can't do and still call yourself straight edge, regardless of how you want to try and view it and what you want to call law.

[yaoull]

it is about reasoning, but there are still things you can't do and still call yourself straight edge, regardless of how you want to try and view it and what you want to call law.

ok, so accept that in some situation the sxe reasoning unlight by the laws can conduct do drink and not prefere to don't drink.


And in fact, if you are afraid to drink, it's because you are afraid to seem's not sxe.
But if you know what is good to do, and what it's dangerous, you stay more sxe : cause you don't do for the other who is looking to you. sxe enslave don't make don't a prisonier but being free.

If some friend comes to you and are enjoy to drink some bier, not to be drunk but cause they are not sxe and it's they way to express their friendship... what will look you? at the law ( and frustrated they in their feeling to be close with you)? or at what the sXe mean ?..

( and Alcoloh is not like heroin )

sXe is to weight all time good and bad.
law can't handle this, cause all situation are different even most look the same.

[yaoull]

and for religious purpose -that the topic-, you can't crutch a sXe guy who want follow someone - that maybe you don't accept but he's more for sXe that against- juste because i drink some time wine for religious interresed..

this that who make me crazy.. it's not like if he drinks often.. but for his beliefs.
that's baddd ?
that'is why i say your reaction are exagerted when you weigh bad and good.
no?

( you can doesn't accept that a sXe follows jesus, but don't disguise the right reason by XXX argue.. )

[xsecx]

ok, so accept that in some situation the sxe reasoning unlight by the laws can conduct do drink and not prefere to don't drink.


And in fact, if you are afraid to drink, it's because you are afraid to seem's not sxe.
But if you know what is good to do, and what it's dangerous, you stay more sxe : cause you don't do for the other who is looking to you. sxe enslave don't make don't a prisonier but being free.

If some friend comes to you and are enjoy to drink some bier, not to be drunk but cause they are not sxe and it's they way to express their friendship... what will look you? at the law ( and frustrated they in their feeling to be close with you)? or at what the sXe mean ?..

( and Alcoloh is not like heroin )

sXe is to weight all time good and bad.
law can't handle this, cause all situation are different even most look the same.

not really following you. I agree with you that people shouldn't feel compelled to be straight edge for the label or do thinks based on whether or not it makes them straight edge. That also though doesn't mean you could drink with your friend and still be straight edge. Straight edge is an extreme stance, so yes, we would treat alcohol the same as we would herion in terms of self consumption because your opinion on those substances and your reasons why you don't do them don't really change.

[xsecx]

and for religious purpose -that the topic-, you can't crutch a sXe guy who want follow someone - that maybe you don't accept but he's more for sXe that against- juste because i drink some time wine for religious interresed..

this that who make me crazy.. it's not like if he drinks often.. but for his beliefs.
that's baddd ?
that'is why i say your reaction are exagerted when you weigh bad and good.
no?

( you can doesn't accept that a sXe follows jesus, but don't disguise the right reason by XXX argue.. )

it's not bad, but it's also not straight edge. If straight edge was about moderation then it wouldn't be an issue, but it isn't. straight edge is against the consumption of alcohol and the religious issues have more to do with disagreeing with god than anything else.

[yaoull]

understand why i say you are religious : when you speak about your belief you say always: "it's against against against against"

so what? i'm not more avandced... what sxe is it FOR ?
it's seem's you know well what it's not, like religious who speak about belief they don't understant, or monkey who try to be like human... but the principal motor you don't seems to see it, speak about...

hardcore comes to bring life where there was no futur. and you speak like a punk who are find a new mask: you dont' see where you can go to rise up, but you know where you risk to die... you always speak about death and wrong at the end..
And that is not sXe at all !!

build. don't try to see where that is falling down : let's that to the punk.
sXe looks at where we can go, and not at where we can't go. rise up :)

[xsecx]

understand why i say you are religious : when you speak about your belief you say always: "it's against against against against"

so what? i'm not more avandced... what sxe is it FOR ?
it's seem's you know well what it's not, like religious who speak about belief they don't understant, or monkey who try to be like human... but the principal motor you don't seems to see it, speak about...

hardcore comes to bring life where there was no futur. and you speak like a punk who are find a new mask: you dont' see where you can go to rise up, but you know where you risk to die... you always speak about death and wrong at the end..
And that is not sXe at all !!

build. don't try to see where that is falling down : let's that to the punk.
sXe looks at where we can go, and not at where we can't go. rise up :)

ok. so then what is straight edge, define it for me.

[SgtD]

all you blindfoldedlyspoonfedwithyourreligionchristianswho dontknowtheirownreligionandcantseeyourselvesbeingp rovedwrongandjustadmititandtoodumbtoseethewholeiss uethrough make me wanna vomit my breakfast from yesterday! Wise up already

[yaoull]

it's a reaction of destruction way of life punk who inspire a really rise up and will to live.
To look at what we can build up instead of looking of the wrong of this world. The will is to give us a chance, altough the world is not pink.

In this way we want have a correct life in respecting ourself and other people ( that why the tripleXXX), and after the other being too cause we are linked ( the 4th X, for vegetan, always for building life preoccupation )

It's about rise punkish to the right direction, to not stand front of the wall and grow up the mouvement where negatif and fatalistik attitude had block him.

all values are for create a mouvement, positive mouvement for enlace life.
the XXX are created for this, and not this for the XXX.


And i don't reconnize this in your "seeking the wrong" attitude.

[xsecx]

it's a reaction of destruction way of life punk who inspire a really rise up and will to live.
To look at what we can build up instead of looking of the wrong of this world. The will is to give us a chance, altough the world is not pink.

In this way we want have a correct life in respecting ourself and other people ( that why the tripleXXX), and after the other being too cause we are linked ( the 4th X, for vegetan, always for building life preoccupation )

It's about rise punkish to the right direction, to not stand front of the wall and grow up the mouvement where negatif and fatalistik attitude had block him.

all values are for create a mouvement, positive mouvement for enlace life.
the XXX are created for this, and not this for the XXX.


And i don't reconnize this in your "seeking the wrong" attitude.

this is rhetoric and not a definition. What makes someone straight edge? what do they believe? What do they do? What do those X's you keep referencing refer to?

[straightXed]

That's cool dude. I don't really care, man... Awesome that you found scripture where Christ consumed wine. He didn't abuse it. It wasn't recreational as I stated.

It was recreational, i even posted a defintion of the word recreational for you and you still can't seem to understand what that word means. If you get one thing from this thread please let it be an understanding of the word recreational.


The world has turned into a shittier place since then. I wish there weren't psychoactives, including alcohol.
Hell, even grape juice contains a very miniscule level of alcohol... Do you now have a problem with grape juice?
Just how far does this go before you don't consume anything at all? Foods, water, anything... I mean, how do you know if your water doesn't contain some chemicals that you strongly hate?

now you are asking how people know water isn't somekind of drug, dude you are seriously reaching.


But, dude... Argue all you want... Keep on... As I've said, again and again... I'll answer questions... I'll explain views... But I won't argue anymore. Go break your leg in 5 places and tell the hospital you refuse painkillers because your edge... That'll be great.

But you don't answer questions, you completely ignore entire posts! And what the hell makes you think anyone would refuse painkillers, you are fabricating everything you are arguing against in your head and completely ignoring what is actually being discussed.


It's a waste of time. I won't argue.
As my last 3 entries have been, I won't argue... And my future entries will not be arguments either. So keep on...

Well seeing as you can't really make cohesive points its probably best you don't argue. If you could actually answer the points raised to illuminate exactly why your stance isn't contradictive then people would accept what you say but i've yet to see you do that. All you have established is your reasoning for your stance not being contradictive is completely unproovable and you are happy for it to contradict the bible. Its not exactly a water tight argument is it.

[yaoull]

well great, XXX is for you the definition of straig edge..
You do XXX for be a straigh edge, but I do XXX CAUSE i'm a straigh edge.

You believe being a straigh edge cause you do XXX, but you don't understand that because you are straig edge that you will do XXX, not the contrary.
it's just empty.

And for the X of sexe, how do understand? = no sexe? no changing partenair?
You exactly know why X.X.X are been set up, the spirit of this X meaning, so why stay blind for alcool?

Go on to believe it's a movement centered around abstince.
i'm sad for your girlfriend if it's your way to live the third X.
i'm sad for your life if it's your way to feel sXe


3rd X is about fidelity, about love : not about abstince of infidelity or abstince of anythingelse..

your legalism make you weird.

[SgtD]

well great, XXX is for you the definition of straig edge..
You do XXX for be a straigh edge, but I do XXX CAUSE i'm a straigh edge.

You believe being a straigh edge cause you do XXX, but you don't understand that because you are straig edge that you will do XXX, not the contrary.
it's just empty.
XXX is not a definiton of straight edge.


And for the X of sexe, how do understand? = no sexe? no changing partenair?
You exactly know why X.X.X are been set up, the spirit of this X meaning, so why stay blind for alcool?

Go on to believe it's a movement centered around abstince.
i'm sad for your girlfriend if it's your way to live the third X.
i'm sad for your life if it's your way to feel sXe


3rd X is about fidelity, about love : not about abstince of infidelity or abstince of anythingelse..

your legalism make you weird.
with your comments you just made clear to everyone you don't know what straight edge is

[xsecx]

well great, XXX is for you the definition of straig edge..
You do XXX for be a straigh edge, but I do XXX CAUSE i'm a straigh edge.


no it's not. where did I say that I don't do things so I can be straight edge?



You believe being a straigh edge cause you do XXX, but you don't understand that because you are straig edge that you will do XXX, not the contrary.
it's just empty.


um, no I don't.



And for the X of sexe, how do understand? = no sexe? no changing partenair?
You exactly know why X.X.X are been set up, the spirit of this X meaning, so why stay blind for alcool?


what are you basing this statement on?



Go on to believe it's a movement centered around abstince.
i'm sad for your girlfriend if it's your way to live the third X.
i'm sad for your life if it's your way to feel sXe


Do you understand what the word abstince means in english?
Main Entry: ab·sti·nence
Pronunciation: 'ab-st&-n&n(t)s
Function: noun
2 : habitual abstaining from intoxicating beverages




3rd X is about fidelity, about love : not about abstince of infidelity or abstince of anythingelse..

your legalism make you weird.

your weird uses of XXX's makes you weird. You talk about legalism and then use X's instead of "you don't do" and then talk about the meaning behind it. Straight edge has criteria that you can't do to be straight edge. That's what you're using those X's to represent. The actual reality is that the XXX doesn't actually have any real substantial meaning and were just taken from a dischord record that used the X's instead of stars in the DC flag.

[stepinsideissue]

This has been one of the most fucked up conversations that I've read in a long time.

[xmegx]

ok, dont appreciate the digs at techno. techno is pretty cool, electonic music is amazing.
i personally am i christian, sxe and i dont like screamo music!
what does that mean yall are gonna kick me out? if so then what i thought i belonged to isn't that at all.

God is a personal belief, since when does anyone have the right to discriminate against that? and actually almost every sxe person in milwaukee [where i live] does believe in God.

God and the Bible specifically say not to get drunk and im sure that if Jesus would have had something else to drink he would have.

[xsecx]

ok, dont appreciate the digs at techno. techno is pretty cool, electonic music is amazing.
i personally am i christian, sxe and i dont like screamo music!
what does that mean yall are gonna kick me out? if so then what i thought i belonged to isn't that at all.

God is a personal belief, since when does anyone have the right to discriminate against that? and actually almost every sxe person in milwaukee [where i live] does believe in God.

God and the Bible specifically say not to get drunk and im sure that if Jesus would have had something else to drink he would have.

have you ever heard the song filler by minor threat? Hardcore has a huge history of being antichristian, it isn't anything new at all.

also, pointing out a logical paradox in someone's professed beliefs isn't discrimination at all.

I mean. Do you honestly believe that Jesus wasn't god? That he could turn water to wine, but couldn't find something non alcoholic to drink? Shit, john the baptist could and he wasn't even the son of "god"

[xmegx]

what.

ok. then. but you didn't answer my question. why is this movement of misfits, for lack of a better term, so against diversity.

you have to put what Jesus did and drank, into the context of the time period, and contxt.

water was bad to drink, so was milk. they[he] never drank wine to become drunk.

for alot of the soceity, wine was like our milk. we drink all the time.

and back then the alcohol content in wine was so small it was really hard to getdrunk. you needed to drink ALOT at one time

[xsecx]

what.

ok. then. but you didn't answer my question. why is this movement of misfits, for lack of a better term, so against diversity.


What question did you actually ask? Did you even read what I wrote to you? It's not against diversity at all, your beliefes contradict each other. It's a matter of christian belief not fitting straight edge beliefs, not the other way around.



you have to put what Jesus did and drank, into the context of the time period, and contxt.

water was bad to drink, so was milk. they[he] never drank wine to become drunk.

for alot of the soceity, wine was like our milk. we drink all the time.

and back then the alcohol content in wine was so small it was really hard to getdrunk. you needed to drink ALOT at one time

again, this is complete and utter bullshit. John the baptist, who travelled with jesus, didn't drink. jesus gave wine to people who were already drunk at the wedding. Please read the following:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html

[xmegx]

What question did you actually ask? Did you even read what I wrote to you? It's not against diversity at all, your beliefes contradict each other. It's a matter of christian belief not fitting straight edge beliefs, not the other way around.


who made you the 'god" for sxe. seriousl.y dude give me a written list of rules of what i can/cant think, do or care about.
then i guess i'll decide if i really am straight edge.


again, this is complete and utter bullshit. John the baptist, who travelled with jesus, didn't drink. jesus gave wine to people who were already drunk at the wedding. Please read the following:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html


can you prove that John the Baptist never drank. ive read the Bible, more than you prolly. it never says that he did. or that he didn't. so how are we to know. what else is he gonna drink when he's all alone in the desert? Jesus used that incident with the wedding to reveal his power and all that he could do for them. he needed an entrance so to speak

[xsecx]

can you prove that John the Baptist never drank. ive read the Bible, more than you prolly. it never says that he did. or that he didn't. so how are we to know. what else is he gonna drink when he's all alone in the desert? Jesus used that incident with the wedding to reveal his power and all that he could do for them. he needed an entrance so to speak

uh. yeah it did. You might want to go pick up your bible and read Luke 7:33-34 I also really like Luke 1:15. I guarantee you I've actually independently researched this, instead of just taking what someone in the church told you. Jesus had no problem drinking wine, so why do you? Is your god wrong? If he had a problem with alcohol consumption why would turn water to wine then?

[PROPER JERK]

I always hear the argument from christians that claim edge about how being edge is very similar to strict christian morals but I cant say I buy that at all. They also always give me the argument that straight edge now is very different to years ago and that the only real important part of it is living a drug free lifestyle and nothing else really matters. It also really sucks for me as the main promoter/organiser for hardcore shows in my area is a hypocrite christian straight edge guy. I dont really understand how you can love hardcore and be a christian, in my eyes hardcore is against the grain while christianity is being just another sheep.

[xmegx]

being a christian isn't being another sheep. we follow what most of soceity thinks is bogus.

the gov't, random ppl, soceity all try to take away our rights and constantly tell us that we are wrong.

i think that yes, the modern american church is kinda screwed up and has lost alot of credibility, but the message God sent to us is still the same and loving.

i dont do drugs, i dont drink alcohol, and it has nothing to do with that im a christian, basically i wouldn't do those things, heck i didn't do those things when i wasn't a christian. it has alot more to do with who i am, and where i came from and what might happen to my future if did them.

and why is hardcore music so anti-christian? i know alot of hardcore bands that are VERY pro Jesus. the style has nothing to do with the message.

and you're running under the assumption the the church is against loud, roaring music. it's not. well stupid christians who have no respect for differences.

my church goes to hardcore shows. doesn't make us non-christian.

[straightXed]

and why is hardcore music so anti-christian? i know alot of hardcore bands that are VERY pro Jesus. the style has nothing to do with the message.

and you're running under the assumption the the church is against loud, roaring music. it's not. well stupid christians who have no respect for differences.

my church goes to hardcore shows. doesn't make us non-christian.

Christians are against anger though, with the bible suggesting that its a sin. Hardcore is an open embrace of anger, its a reaction of anger within its sound, its words, its actions etc. Why would you openly continue to sin against your god by being a part of something that condones and even recommends being angry?

[xsecx]

being a christian isn't being another sheep. we follow what most of soceity thinks is bogus.

my church goes to hardcore shows. doesn't make us non-christian.

I guess you read those verses, huh? When you can't argue the logic, you go off on an unrelated tangent.

You do realize that the vast majority of people in this country are church going christians right? That even the smallest town will have MULTIPLE churches.

your church uses hardcore to recruit, that makes you despicable.

[Calminaion]

You can be sXe and Christian. I have my reasons for believing so, and am personally a Christian, but not yet sXe. I take flak for being punk and Christian. I take flak from Christians for being punk, and flak from punks for being Christian.

I could care less what they think. I am who I am.

Rob

[straightXed]

You can be sXe and Christian. I have my reasons for believing so, and am personally a Christian, but not yet sXe. I take flak for being punk and Christian. I take flak from Christians for being punk, and flak from punks for being Christian.

I could care less what they think. I am who I am.

Rob

I'm glad you care somewhat about the fact that you are a walking contradiction.

[asiankaos]

This makes no damn sense whats so ever. Edge kids can be christians. I've been edge since 94 or so and a Christian my whole life. Because Jesus drank wine I can't follow him. Thats the stupidiest thing I ever heard. Everybody ( for the most part ) on here says edge is a personal choice...so is religion. So you guys go tell the cro-mags or youth of today shelter or 108 they are wrong for listening to core and being Krishna's. Religion and sXe have nothing to do with each other. Most of you people take yourself way to seriously. Get over it edge and hardcore don't make the world go around. Its imortant to me and its a big part of my life and it has been for 14 years or so but guess what....it's not my life.
You can't be edge and christian...utterly retared. That is by far one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life.

[asiankaos]

And for the not following Jesus thing because he drank. So you don't listen to anybody who isn't edge so your parents teachers and boss are all edge right? So the laws you follow everyday were passed by people who were edge right? EDGE ISN'T THE BE ALL AND END ALL GET OVER IT!!!!!!

[asiankaos]

And also after reading this thread I am truely amazed by how stupid and self righteous a lot of you guys are. And this brings me back to one of my favorite sayings " love hardcore hate hardcore kids "

[asiankaos]

How is edge a movement? What is edge trying to change. What effect on society does edge have besides on a few kids who listen to core? Edge is not a movement it is a lifestyle. And if it is a movement then why were all you guys bitchin' about militant kids saying kill your local drug dealer? A movement takes action. It doesn't sit on internet boards and bitch about kids who are christian and edge. I'm done with this site.

[D1988]

How is edge a movement? What is edge trying to change. What effect on society does edge have besides on a few kids who listen to core? Edge is not a movement it is a lifestyle. And if it is a movement then why were all you guys bitchin' about militant kids saying kill your local drug dealer? A movement takes action. It doesn't sit on internet boards and bitch about kids who are christian and edge. I'm done with this site.

Watch your booty on the door there buddy, it might hurt when it hits you.

[xsecx]

This makes no damn sense whats so ever. Edge kids can be christians. I've been edge since 94 or so and a Christian my whole life. Because Jesus drank wine I can't follow him. Thats the stupidiest thing I ever heard. Everybody ( for the most part ) on here says edge is a personal choice...so is religion. So you guys go tell the cro-mags or youth of today shelter or 108 they are wrong for listening to core and being Krishna's. Religion and sXe have nothing to do with each other. Most of you people take yourself way to seriously. Get over it edge and hardcore don't make the world go around. Its imortant to me and its a big part of my life and it has been for 14 years or so but guess what....it's not my life.
You can't be edge and christian...utterly retared. That is by far one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life.

if you read it, then you'd hopefully had read how it's not matter of religion, but in fact, a matter of Christianity and how the beliefs do in fact contradict. I'm glad you actually addressed the logical argument instead of just ranting. wait. all you did was rant and say that people were wrong, but didn't actually explain how/why.

[xsecx]

And for the not following Jesus thing because he drank. So you don't listen to anybody who isn't edge so your parents teachers and boss are all edge right? So the laws you follow everyday were passed by people who were edge right? EDGE ISN'T THE BE ALL AND END ALL GET OVER IT!!!!!!


so jesus was just a human and not perfect? Or was jesus divine and perfect? If jesus was perfect, then how can you find fault in anything he did? If he wasn't perfect, then how could he have not sinned and therefore able to die for the sins of the world?

[xmegx]

i agree with the asian kid.

and you know what im not going to argue about my Bible. you choose to believe what you believe.

as will i.

i would rather just know why it's sooo bad to be different than all of yall.

and we dont use hardcore to "recruit". we go to CHRISTIAN hardcore bands. its screaming and head banging but with a more positive message.

God is life. so is sxe. why can't they co-exsist.???

[xsecx]

i agree with the asian kid.
then maybe you can answer the questions I asked him too.



and you know what im not going to argue about my Bible. you choose to believe what you believe.

as will i.



So you have no intention of actually looking at yourself and your religion and understanding how some of your beliefs contradict with some of your other beliefs?



i would rather just know why it's sooo bad to be different than all of yall.

Did you even read what was said? Do you even understand that argument that's been made as to why you can't christian and edge?



and we dont use hardcore to "recruit". we go to CHRISTIAN hardcore bands. its screaming and head banging but with a more positive message.


so you don't hand out flyers to the shows, don't advertise them? Don't try and get people to listen to them because of their awesome message?




God is life. so is sxe. why can't they co-exsist.???

because your god likes to drink wine and sxe thinks your god is wrong.

[XbassmanX]

ok i would like to say that in Bible times

wine was not always alcoholic

it was also grapejuice-like

[xsecx]

ok i would like to say that in Bible times

wine was not always alcoholic

it was also grapejuice-like

yeah, that's actually a lie that some churches came up with relatively recently.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html

"It is clear that both the Old and New Testaments are clear and consistent in their condemnation of drunkenness. However, some Christians today argue that whenever "wine" was used by Jesus or praised as a gift of God, it was really grape juice; only when it caused drunkenness was it wine. Thus, they interpret the Bible as asserting that grape juice is good and that drinking it is acceptable to God but that wine is bad and that drinking it is unacceptable. This reasoning appears to be incorrect for at least two reasons. First, neither the Hebrew nor Biblical Greek word for wine can be translated or interpreted as referring to grape juice. Secondly, grape juice would quickly ferment into wine in the warm climate of the Mediterranean region without refrigeration or modern methods of preservation (Royce, 1986, pp. 55-56; Raymond, 1927, pp. 18-22; Hewitt, 1980, pp. 11-12)."

[iamnotaturtle]

okay... i'm new here... so i'm still getting used to things... but i don't see how the fact that Jesus drank wine 2000 years ago has any impact whatsoever on modern society... i mean, seriously, if we're supposed to be accepting of other people, why can't you be Christian and sXe... so... excuse my ignorance... but could someone please explain that to me?

[XbassmanX]

okay... i'm new here... so i'm still getting used to things... but i don't see how the fact that Jesus drank wine 2000 years ago has any impact whatsoever on modern society... i mean, seriously, if we're supposed to be accepting of other people, why can't you be Christian and sXe... so... excuse my ignorance... but could someone please explain that to me?

me too


and i didnt say all wine back then was grapejuice


and besides how would you know if it wasnt?

[PROPER JERK]

I don't see why christians want to be a part of a movement in which the majority of people involved are anti christian.

[XbassmanX]

and i dont see why people in the straightedge scene cry for unity but wont accept other peoples beliefs

[PROPER JERK]

and i dont see why people in the straightedge scene cry for unity but wont accept other peoples beliefs

1. Hardcore has never been very accepting of Christians.

2. Any serious christian I have met that attends church on sunday partakes in the consumption of alcohol (wine the blood of christ) and that ceremony is deeply rooted in the bible and christian beliefs.

3. Why would you be half assed about something you say you so strongly believe in, something that is written in the bible as an essential part of your faith to god and remembering jesus ("take eat, take drink and do this in remembrance of me") should not be ignored right?

4. And this ritual it clearly states he gave them wine and it has been practiced that way for hundreds of years now, how are you remembering Jesus/God if you do not partake in this?

5. Do you even read the bible and understand your religion? Why is it ok to ignore some parts you don't agree with or customize it to your wants and needs, is a straight edge lifestyle worth more than being true to your spiritual beliefs?

[xsecx]

okay... i'm new here... so i'm still getting used to things... but i don't see how the fact that Jesus drank wine 2000 years ago has any impact whatsoever on modern society... i mean, seriously, if we're supposed to be accepting of other people, why can't you be Christian and sXe... so... excuse my ignorance... but could someone please explain that to me?

then can't the same be said for everything else Jesus did? Also, please read the thread and not just the title to understand why people are saying people can't be christian and edge and why the beliefs conflict.

[xsecx]

me too


and i didnt say all wine back then was grapejuice


and besides how would you know if it wasnt?

because in some cases, specifically the wedding at cana and passover, it couldn't have been grape juice? Why would it be? There isn't a historical or cultural reason to believe that jesus didn't drink alcohol.

[xmegx]

1. Hardcore has never been very accepting of Christians.

2. Any serious christian I have met that attends church on sunday partakes in the consumption of alcohol (wine the blood of christ) and that ceremony is deeply rooted in the bible and christian beliefs.

we use grape juice you idiot. we can't give 11 year olds alcohol. the modern church is against alcohol. i think the catholic church still uses wine, but thats the CATHOLIC church. not everyone.

3. Why would you be half assed about something you say you so strongly believe in, something that is written in the bible as an essential part of your faith to god and remembering jesus ("take eat, take drink and do this in remembrance of me") should not be ignored right?

becuase i put my faith into 20th century life.

4. And this ritual it clearly states he gave them wine and it has been practiced that way for hundreds of years now, how are you remembering Jesus/God if you do not partake in this?

its the idea and symbolism of it all, not the actual wine.

5. Do you even read the bible and understand your religion? Why is it ok to ignore some parts you don't agree with or customize it to your wants and needs, is a straight edge lifestyle worth more than being true to your spiritual beliefs?

they are both VERY important to me. i can be both. they go along with each other

[xsecx]

they are both VERY important to me. i can be both. they go along with each other

Saying 2 things that contradict each other go along, isn't thing as they actually doing. Do you think Jesus was perfect? And do you think drinking is wrong?

[xmegx]

then maybe you can answer the questions I asked him too.



So you have no intention of actually looking at yourself and your religion and understanding how some of your beliefs contradict with some of your other beliefs?


Did you even read what was said? Do you even understand that argument that's been made as to why you can't christian and edge?



so you don't hand out flyers to the shows, don't advertise them? Don't try and get people to listen to them because of their awesome message?

absolutly not. i would never do that. we go to CHRISTIAN hardcore shows. so everyone there is already familiar with God.



because your god likes to drink wine and sxe thinks your god is wrong.

why can't we just agree to disagree. ? me being a christain doesn't affect ne one but me!

[xsecx]

why can't we just agree to disagree. ? me being a christain doesn't affect ne one but me!

Why can't you actually address the points have been raised? How am I supposed to agree to disagree when you can't actually counter any of the points that have been raised? Why would/should I respect the opinion of someone who clearly hasn't even really thought this issue through?

[PROPER JERK]

they are both VERY important to me. i can be both. they go along with each other

They don't go along together, both disagree with eachother...

You either be edge and disregard essential parts of being christian or you disregard your straight edge beliefs to be christian... in my eyes that isnt really caring much about either of them and a total waste of time.

[XbassmanX]

so are you saying that you dont accept christians because you say its self contradicting?

[PROPER JERK]

so are you saying that you dont accept christians because you say its self contradicting?

Almost 40 pages of people saying that Christian beliefs clash with straight edge beliefs and you are asking this question?

I don't know how I can make it anymore crystal clear for you...

[NapoleonXXX]

making referance to jesus drinking wine therefore being inpure or a impropper roll model and should never be assosiated with being edge is fucking stupid.
back 2000 years ago did they have straight edge.? no they didnt and it was fucking customry to drink wine. things change over time and become more socialy "right" as time goes on. 40 years ago if you had a tattoo you would of been a sailor or in jail. now nealy every fucker has one. in the 1600's and 1700's the law was what the bible said. if read books other then the bible it was noticed you were a witch and you would be hung.
and 2000 years ago people drank wine as customry, not to get off there chops or anything.
im athiest however i have been to religious school only because the education is better. and they say the bible isn't to be taken litteraly. so in my opinion being christian and edge is fuckin rad. also just because you dont listen to the music doesnt mean your not edge.
call yourself what you want. dont be selfish with a name unless somebody is trying put it down then defend it.

[PROPER JERK]

making referance to jesus drinking wine therefore being inpure or a impropper roll model and should never be assosiated with being edge is fucking stupid.
back 2000 years ago did they have straight edge.? no they didnt and it was fucking customry to drink wine. things change over time and become more socialy "right" as time goes on. 40 years ago if you had a tattoo you would of been a sailor or in jail. now nealy every fucker has one. in the 1600's and 1700's the law was what the bible said. if read books other then the bible it was noticed you were a witch and you would be hung.
and 2000 years ago people drank wine as customry, not to get off there chops or anything.
im athiest however i have been to religious school only because the education is better. and they say the bible isn't to be taken litteraly. so in my opinion being christian and edge is fuckin rad. also just because you dont listen to the music doesnt mean your not edge.
call yourself what you want. dont be selfish with a name unless somebody is trying put it down then defend it.

I never once mentioned Jesus drinking wine and being an improper role model, my argument on this subject is that being a Christian means taking part in a ceremony in which you consume alcohol to remember Jesus.

The Christian religion is based on a faith in Jesus Christ and god, in the bible it says so itself "Take: eat; take: drink. Do this in remembrance of me." This is instruction from Jesus Christ your lord and Saviour. I don't know about you but it seems to me that the consumption of alcohol is a pretty important part of being a Christian, unless you are of course a born again Christian in which case you might as well write moron on your forehead every day when you wake up.

[SgtD]

making referance to jesus drinking wine therefore being inpure or a impropper roll model and should never be assosiated with being edge is fucking stupid.
back 2000 years ago did they have straight edge.? no they didnt and it was fucking customry to drink wine. things change over time and become more socialy "right" as time goes on. 40 years ago if you had a tattoo you would of been a sailor or in jail. now nealy every fucker has one. in the 1600's and 1700's the law was what the bible said. if read books other then the bible it was noticed you were a witch and you would be hung.
and 2000 years ago people drank wine as customry, not to get off there chops or anything.
im athiest however i have been to religious school only because the education is better. and they say the bible isn't to be taken litteraly. so in my opinion being christian and edge is fuckin rad. also just because you dont listen to the music doesnt mean your not edge.
call yourself what you want. dont be selfish with a name unless somebody is trying put it down then defend it.
wow, the only dumbfuck is you.
as you started off by calling names, you should have read the thread from the beginning. and again. and again. maybe that will help.
the pure fact is, that if you are a christian, Jesus is your god, he is without sin, and can not be wrong. sxe kids say that drinking is wrong. christian kids say he can not be wrong. a sxe christian is a contradiction in itself.
it still is the customry to drink wine. i don't see what you are pointing at with this one. unless that it is socially right to drink, and if it is in your standards, and you say you are sxe, than that's interesting.
straight edge without hardcore is nothing. the music is the channel for sxe. if you don't listen to the music, you still can be drug free, why be selfish, and use the name if you don't have any relation to it? having the drug free label is not enough?
i personally don't give a damn about kids thinking about themselves as sxe, it does annoy me, but i know full well, they'll be gone in a year or so.
religious school doesn't seem to be too good of an education for you if you can't see the point.

[xmegx]

WE DONT DRINK WINE. WILL YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME!!!!

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MAY OR NOT DRINK WINE WITH COMMUNION BUT THE MODERN CHURCH DOES NOT.

its Grape juice. it's SYMBOLIC of what Jesus wanted us to do. not really alcohol.

and none of you have refuted the fact that drinking wine was cultural, 2000 years ago, so not seen as an evil thing that it is now.


and being straight edge is against drinking and doing drugs, so is the christian church.

[SgtD]

WE DONT DRINK WINE. WILL YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME!!!!

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MAY OR NOT DRINK WINE WITH COMMUNION BUT THE MODERN CHURCH DOES NOT.

its Grape juice. it's SYMBOLIC of what Jesus wanted us to do. not really alcohol.

and none of you have refuted the fact that drinking wine was cultural, 2000 years ago, so not seen as an evil thing that it is now.


and being straight edge is against drinking and doing drugs, so is the christian church.
woah!
this is pretty much a flawed logic.
the catholic church really handles out real wine, and i never heard about grape juice before. come and check at any church over here.
a small heads-up: drinking wine is cultural in the days we live in. I don't know how the christian church is against drinking, when the preachers are consuming it (just like the people who do communion) and the preachers have famous wineyards, and schnapps in a lot of countries even in these days we live in. (this is a historically proven fact)
However, it is cool, that you think Jesus is evil! :)
the person who has to listen, and think about these things, is you.(and your friends on here)

[xsecx]

WE DONT DRINK WINE. WILL YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME!!!!

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MAY OR NOT DRINK WINE WITH COMMUNION BUT THE MODERN CHURCH DOES NOT.

its Grape juice. it's SYMBOLIC of what Jesus wanted us to do. not really alcohol.

and none of you have refuted the fact that drinking wine was cultural, 2000 years ago, so not seen as an evil thing that it is now.


and being straight edge is against drinking and doing drugs, so is the christian church.

answer two basic questions.

Do you think drinking is wrong?

Do you think Jesus was perfect?

[mouseman004]

Man these kids who come into these groups just to argue the idea of christianity not coinciding wth sxe, are lame. I am sure glad that is not how i got started on this website.....

[xmegx]

yes, yes.

[xsecx]

yes, yes.

then if jesus was perfect, then how can something he do be wrong?

[xmegx]

i think that what Jesus did was, accpetable in what he did only because the culture he lived in was ok with it. and he never got drunk.

the Bible is against get drunk, not neccessarily drinking. he never got drunk therefore, never did Jesus break his own laws.

and in Hungary it might be different but the majority of american churches are against drinking and use grape juice.
except for the catholic church, which is universal.

[xsecx]

i think that what Jesus did was, accpetable in what he did only because the culture he lived in was ok with it. and he never got drunk.


again, why does cultural relevance matter? He was perfect. If he was perfect then, he should be perfect now. That's what perfect means. He chose to do it, one of his disciples chose not to. Jesus drank, John the baptist didn't. According to your own beliefs Jesus was wrong for his choice.



the Bible is against get drunk, not neccessarily drinking. he never got drunk therefore, never did Jesus break his own laws.


But you ARE against drinking, and therefore believe that something jesus did was wrong. You've judged god. That's the crux of the issue. how can you find fault in god?

[PROPER JERK]

i think that what Jesus did was, accpetable in what he did only because the culture he lived in was ok with it. and he never got drunk.

That is possibly the most retarded thing I have ever heard. The culture we live in now is ok with drinking and it is the most common social activity. Did you ever think to even research or find out anything about straight edge before you claimed it?

Also can you tell me what the modern church you belong to is?

[XbassmanX]

woah!
this is pretty much a flawed logic.
the catholic church really handles out real wine, and i never heard about grape juice before. come and check at any church over here.
a small heads-up: drinking wine is cultural in the days we live in. I don't know how the christian church is against drinking, when the preachers are consuming it (just like the people who do communion) and the preachers have famous wineyards, and schnapps in a lot of countries even in these days we live in. (this is a historically proven fact)
However, it is cool, that you think Jesus is evil! :)
the person who has to listen, and think about these things, is you.(and your friends on here)


i dont know what kind of church you are talking about but it sure aint mine

[PROPER JERK]

i dont know what kind of church you are talking about but it sure aint mine

Are you born again?

[SgtD]

i dont know what kind of church you are talking about but it sure aint mine
re-read, it's well hidden in my post!
hint: it starts with a c.

[xmegx]

ok, i'm not judging jesus at all. dont say that i do when i dont.

jesus was PERFECT. i dont drink not becuause i think it's bad, but becuase i dont want to be addicted.


i go to a non-denominational church. im a born again believer.

John the Baptist wasn't really his disciple. he was a prophet and fore-comer. and John the Baptist didn't drink becuase he was a Nazarene, not for any other reason.

and if drinking was ok, and getting drunk was not, and Jesus never got drunk, then still is he perfect.

[xsecx]

ok, i'm not judging jesus at all. dont say that i do when i dont.

jesus was PERFECT. i dont drink not becuause i think it's bad, but becuase i dont want to be addicted.


um, I just asked you if you thought drinking was wrong, and you said yes? If you don't think drinking is bad, then why would you call yourself straight edge, a group who does think drinking is bad?



John the Baptist wasn't really his disciple. he was a prophet and fore-comer. and John the Baptist didn't drink becuase he was a Nazarene, not for any other reason.


Do you realize how incredibly inconsistant you are? First you argue that jesus had to drink, then you refute that john the baptist didn't drink, and now you accept it but then don't actually address your original point.



and if drinking was ok, and getting drunk was not, and Jesus never got drunk, then still is he perfect.

and you still said that you think drinking is wrong. Would you have taken the wine from jesus if he gave it to you? IF so, then how are you against drinking? ANd if not, then how can you say that he's perfect?

[xmegx]

i think that world would be a much better place w/out alcohol. but do i think that drinking is like uber uber bad?

for me it would be. i dont judge or presume to know what is best for other people.

well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
i dont get what you're trying to say.

jESUS wouldn't ask me to drink alcohol so thats not even the issue.

[rodrigo]

i think that world would be a much better place w/out alcohol. but do i think that drinking is like uber uber bad?

for me it would be. i dont judge or presume to know what is best for other people.

well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
i dont get what you're trying to say.

jESUS wouldn't ask me to drink alcohol so thats not even the issue.
this has been written before, like a thousand times.

A) straight edge include a stance against the use of recreational drugs. its not abstaing from drugs just for the sake of it, we do it because we dont agree with it.

B) jesus condoned the usage of alcoholic drinks, read this same thread before for all the facts written in the bible and shit.

C) jesus is the son of god in earth but share his escense with the holy trinity, wich means jesus is god, and also was his representative in earth while he was around here.

D) the idea of god is based on a being who is flawless and perfect, so he cant be wrong.

now, you take D and add it up to C and B, you get a perfect god in earth who turns water into whine for people to drink.

but A also says that you dont agree with the usage of alcohol as a recreative drug, so that means you dont agree with the idea of drinking whine, but jesus gave people whine, so he clearly agrees with it... and you dont... and he does...

you see the contradiction?

[SgtD]

i think that world would be a much better place w/out alcohol. but do i think that drinking is like uber uber bad?

for me it would be. i dont judge or presume to know what is best for other people.

well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
i dont get what you're trying to say.

jESUS wouldn't ask me to drink alcohol so thats not even the issue.
what rodrigo said (and the others have been saying since the opening of this topic, if you cared to read..)

i'll add one thing:

well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
Jesus never got drunk you say, but he did drink, adn you admit it. So drinking in moderation is cool with you? I mean, come on, you think drinking is über über bad, and the world would be a better place without it...

and for your reading pleasure, here's something for you:

All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions make me sick
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
They all claim that they have the truth
That'll set you free
Just give 'em all your money and they'll set you free
Free for a fee

They all claim that they have 'the Answer'
When they don't even know the Question
They're just a bunch of liars
They just want your money
They just want your consciousness

All religions suck
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna BLEAH

They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me ILL

[SgtD]

oh yeah, and this one too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPrxB6C-I1M
If you don't understand the lyrics, of which i wouldn't be surprised, get an mp3 of this song. I couldn't find the lyrics for it. NO CIRCLE PITS IN HEAVEN!!!

[PROPER JERK]

Cristian infiltration
you've got your biblical vision
wanting to instill it on xxx hardcore
with conservative precision

this ain´t no cross on my hand

this x on my hand is no dead mans
stigmata
centuries of hate disguised on pamphlet
at a show
impressionable kids believe it but they
haven´t lived enough to know

this ain't no cross on my hand

underneath all the false promises and peace
is nothing but a bunch of lies and the end of
you and me.

this ain't no cross on my hand

[xsecx]

jESUS wouldn't ask me to drink alcohol so thats not even the issue.

he asked other people to, specifically the wedding of cana and the last supper?

Seriously, at this point, is it completely lost on you how much you're contradicting yourself?

[xmegx]

once rodrigo put it into a different way, i see how it could be a contradiction.

but i choose, to see it this way, God would want to me to stay sober, because it would be VERY bad for me.

and God/ Jesus is ultimatley right. this is true.

thanks rodrigo for saying it in a non-accusatory way.

the fact is that im a sxe christian person. it doesn't affect anyone but me, and i think that it should be no biggie to anyone else.

so please dont judge me.

maybe it is a contradiction, but lays on my head, not yours.

[xsecx]

the fact is that im a sxe christian person. it doesn't affect anyone but me, and i think that it should be no biggie to anyone else.

so please dont judge me.

maybe it is a contradiction, but lays on my head, not yours.

well it does, but that's a completely different discussion that the one that's being discussed in this thread. The entire existence of "christian hardcore" and it's used to "save" people very much does affect all of us here.

now how is anyone supposed to respect you on any level when you fail to see the contradictions/faults in your own religion. You ignore the parts you don't agree with and only accept the parts that you do. How does that make any sense? Why would you follow a religion that only kind of fit your beliefs, especially in terms of the level of devotion you're supposed to have for it? This entire conversation happened because you refused to actually look at your beliefs and how they conflict with your religion and your failure to ultimately reconcile them. That's the thing that honestly doesn't make sense. There are quite a few religions that don't condone moderate alcohol consumption. If this is something that's important to you, then why would you choose to follow the one of the only ones that does? Doesn't it's own internal contradiction strike you as odd? "here, drink this wine, it's my blood, but not too much, because it's a sin." Vs. don't drink alcohol, it's not a good idea.

[xmegx]

God isn't against drinking, but he is against getting drunk.

and i know that i couldn't control it if i started to drink, so i just dont altogether.

how is that a contradiction? sxe=not for drinking: me=not a drinker: God=against getting drunk.

the wine jesus gave to his disciples, was only a representation of his blood, his sacrifice.
it wouldn't have made sense to give them water, " here drink this WATER, its my blood"

the modern day christian church is against drinking altogether. that is also what i believe.

its blind faith my friend, not friend.

[xsecx]

God isn't against drinking, but he is against getting drunk.

and i know that i couldn't control it if i started to drink, so i just dont altogether.

how is that a contradiction? sxe=not for drinking: me=not a drinker: God=against getting drunk.

the wine jesus gave to his disciples, was only a representation of his blood, his sacrifice.
it wouldn't have made sense to give them water, " here drink this WATER, its my blood"

the modern day christian church is against drinking altogether. that is also what i believe.

its blind faith my friend, not friend.

so the fact that you think drinking is wrong, and would rather alcohol didn't exist, isn't a contradiction? That your god actually encouraged people to drink, and by being straight edge you're saying that action was wrong, isn't a contradiction? Seriously, why is it so hard a concept to get? If you substituted god for friend or parent, do you think we'd be having the same conversation? Would you still be trying to rationalize it?

and no, the reason jesus gave wine to his disciples, was because as a jew it was and still is customary to drink wine during passover, there's a very real reason why he didn't choose water.

The modern day christian church is also a giant contradiction. You've got some that accept homosexuality. You've got some that condone the killing of doctores. You've got some that condemn homosexuality. The vast majority of modern christians drink alcohol, and the only place where the church is really against alcohol is north america, it certainly isn't the case through central and south america, africa or europe, and well over half of all christians world wide today are catholic, so no, it isn't. SOME are, but the majority of christians and christian churchs actually aren't against alcohol.

I'm glad you've put blind faith in something that clearly doesn't deserve it.

[XbassmanX]

you know

they grapes fermented on the vine over there

because they contain so much suger and stuff in them

so there wasnt even a process to make wine

and they often times put wine into the water so it wouldnt spoil




just saying

[xsecx]

you know

they grapes fermented on the vine over there

because they contain so much suger and stuff in them

so there wasnt even a process to make wine

and they often times put wine into the water so it wouldnt spoil




just saying

what point are you trying to make? There were people around jesus and in the time of jesus who didn't drink wine or alcohol of any kind.

[mouseman004]

what point are you trying to make? There were people around jesus and in the time of jesus who didn't drink wine or alcohol of any kind.

I think you should just stop debating this. You have spelled things out as clearly as possible and they just aren't listening, which is their loss if they want to beleive something that can't be true.

[xsecx]

I think you should just stop debating this. You have spelled things out as clearly as possible and they just aren't listening, which is their loss if they want to beleive something that can't be true.

but it's fun?

[mouseman004]

but it's fun?

lol well in that case..

i just figured you were getting sick of the same debate over and over again, but if you are having fun then that is all that matters!

[xsecx]

lol well in that case..

i just figured you were getting sick of the same debate over and over again, but if you are having fun then that is all that matters!

it's not completely the same.I just find it really amazing how little these folks have actually thought about their own religion. They just believe what they've been told about the bible and their religion and they hold on to is so hard that it's really funny.

[PROPER JERK]

it's not completely the same.I just find it really amazing how little these folks have actually thought about their own religion. They just believe what they've been told about the bible and their religion and they hold on to is so hard that it's really funny.

They are born again Christians, so being armed with a bible is necessary but opening it and doing that thing called reading doesn't really seem to be an important thing to them. Hosting Xbox link up nights and luring kids to their church is most important and make sure you drop a 50 in the collection bag so they can keep up the awesome work!

[XbassmanX]

wasnt that the catholic church that did that?

cause i know for sure my church wouldnt

[mouseman004]

wasnt that the catholic church that did that?

cause i know for sure my church wouldnt


If you are a christian (no matter what denomination), the catholic church is the basis of your religion....

[XbassmanX]

actually...no

im a baptist

weve been around longer than the catholics

but whatever

[PROPER JERK]

actually...no

im a baptist

weve been around longer than the catholics

but whatever

The baptist perpetuity view is not proven in any way. According to solid facts the Baptist church started in the 1600's and trying to use the fact that just because John the Baptist and followers may have existed in the first century is considered incorrect among historians. However the Roman Catholic church has solid evidence of existing in the 300's.

[yourdoomawaitsu]

so you didn't read it too closely did you?

1. you say you are sxe. therefore you think drinking is wrong.
2. you are christian, and think that god is flawless, however jesus drank wine.
3. jesus drank wine-> he can't be flawless like you say. that's the contradiction


they didn't know it was wine man, it wss juice that sat and furmented, they didn't have a fridge man, they just knew tht if they drank to much that they felt funny. drunk another words!

[SgtD]

they didn't know it was wine man, it wss juice that sat and furmented, they didn't have a fridge man, they just knew tht if they drank to much that they felt funny. drunk another words!
this is a load of crap. they were drinking it to get funny. (drunk, in other words!) so what, if they didn't have a fridge? they didn't have to drink it, they were clear about the effects, and didn't think it was wrong, even Jesus encouraged people to drink, and that's what's important.
so therefore: if you think drinking is wrong, then jesus was wrong.

[XbassmanX]

now i dont remember reading anywhere where it said he encouraged people to drink but im pretty sure that they knew what they were drinking was wine.

[SgtD]

now i dont remember reading anywhere where it said he encouraged people to drink but im pretty sure that they knew what they were drinking was wine.
if you read the thread, you had your answer here. it's just a couple of pages back. try, it's not hard.

[yourdoomawaitsu]

ok man, im just getting back into the church and i know that it's all they had to drink man and a far as jesus purifing the water, i think he had more important things to worry about man! They didn't even know the word "drunk" like you said it just made them feel funny if they drank to much, every person was therefore a casual drinker back then, but they didn't know they long term effects or anything. times change, just accept that!

[xsecx]

ok man, im just getting back into the church and i know that it's all they had to drink man and a far as jesus purifing the water, i think he had more important things to worry about man! They didn't even know the word "drunk" like you said it just made them feel funny if they drank to much, every person was therefore a casual drinker back then, but they didn't know they long term effects or anything. times change, just accept that!

please read this whole thread, since it's all addressed and a lot of things you say in this post just simply aren't true.

they did know the word drunk. there were people who traveled with jesus who didn't drink alcohol, and not everyone was a casual drinker. go look up the term nazarene.

[D1988]

im just getting back into the church

yeah.

[XbassmanX]

ok what i said earlier about grapes feermenting on the vine wasnt entirely true

its only if they left them there for too long and rot started setting in did that happen


now i heard that around when the King James Version Bible was being written that they didnt have a word for juice so they referred to all juice as wine.

which would make sense if you read Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

so if they had a word for juice (other than wine) then why would they mention the same thing right after another?

[PROPER JERK]

ok what i said earlier about grapes feermenting on the vine wasnt entirely true

its only if they left them there for too long and rot started setting in did that happen


now i heard that around when the King James Version Bible was being written that they didnt have a word for juice so they referred to all juice as wine.

which would make sense if you read Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

so if they had a word for juice (other than wine) then why would they mention the same thing right after another?

Give up.

[SgtD]

Give up.
this had me laughing out loud, everyone in the office was looking at me. I'm totally with you.

[xsecx]

ok what i said earlier about grapes feermenting on the vine wasnt entirely true

its only if they left them there for too long and rot started setting in did that happen


now i heard that around when the King James Version Bible was being written that they didnt have a word for juice so they referred to all juice as wine.

which would make sense if you read Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

so if they had a word for juice (other than wine) then why would they mention the same thing right after another?

I'm going to post this link to you again for the second time, this time, I suggest you actually read it.
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1114796842.html

what you're being fed is simply not true. I don't know why people fight so hard and make shit up because the reality of the situation is counter what they wish it was.

[mouseman004]

Give up.


Greatest response ever!

[XbassmanX]

ok you know

just because you say i cant believe in what i do and live the way i want doesnt mean im going to stop.

i believe in God

I am Straightedge

and im going to continue to be.

[xsecx]

ok you know

just because you say i cant believe in what i do and live the way i want doesnt mean im going to stop.

i believe in God

I am Straightedge

and im going to continue to be.

and just because you really deep down believe you're a dog, doesn't make it so. THe problem with this kind of response, and all of your responses is that you basically just want to put your fingers in your ears, ignore what anyone else is saying and go about your way. Which of course you're welcome to do, but just realize that deep down, you're wrong, and that if you actually believe in god, he's a vengeful god and he's going to be pissed that you think he's wrong for being a wino.

ps, you're also saying he's weak. good job!

[stepinsideissue]

I really cant believe that this conversation is still on going.

[XBILLYX]

I really cant believe that this conversation is still on going.
it will never end as long as there are christians that believe they are both or as long as there are christian sxe bands

[XBILLYX]

ok man, im just getting back into the church and i know that it's all they had to drink man and a far as jesus purifing the water, i think he had more important things to worry about man! They didn't even know the word "drunk" like you said it just made them feel funny if they drank to much, every person was therefore a casual drinker back then, but they didn't know they long term effects or anything. times change, just accept that!

yea they did know it made you drunk read deeper they talk about noah being drunk and running around nake and it being a sin. thats before jesus

[mouseman004]

yea they did know it made you drank read deeper they talk about noah being drunk and running around nake and it being a sin. thats before jesus


Billy, You're back!

[SgtD]

Billy, You're back!
unfortunately, he is, and in a nick of time he filled the boards with his bullshit.

Hey Billy, what happened to Jesus?

[stepinsideissue]

it will never end as long as there are christians that believe they are both or as long as there are christian sxe bands


God I'd give anything to be back under the tire of my wifes car right now!!!!!!

[PROPER JERK]

Hey Billy, what happened to Jesus?

He killed him, it was a whirlwind of flash, hate and destruction. He hit the road and came back to sxe.com/forums

[SgtD]

He killed him, it was a whirlwind of flash, hate and destruction. He hit the road and came back to sxe.com/forums
Or maybe Billy had some sense for the first time and realized how big of a contradiction was claiming to be christian and edge!

[stepinsideissue]

Or maybe Billy had some sense for the first time and realized how big of a contradiction was claiming to be christian and edge!


Do you really think its possible? Could Billy have really had an epiphany? (? spelling)

[SgtD]

Do you really think its possible? Could Billy have really had an epiphany? (? spelling)
i don't know. maybe

[xsecx]

i don't know. maybe

$100 says he still believes that jesus is god, but that he's too angry to follow the teachings.

[stepinsideissue]

$100 says he still believes that jesus is god, but that he's too angry to follow the teachings.


I'll throw $100 on that as well.

[stepinsideissue]

$100 says he still believes that jesus is god, but that he's too angry to follow the teachings.


And with that statement we could point out half a dozen hipocrocies in Billy's beliefs.

[mouseman004]

$100 says he still believes that jesus is god, but that he's too angry to follow the teachings.

I will take that, but I want 100-1 odds.

[stepinsideissue]

I will take that, but I want 100-1 odds.


I say you can have what ever odds you want! He's still an idiot and you're gonna lose your money. Dusty made the original bet so I guess the odds would be up to him.

[XBILLYX]

I say you can have what ever odds you want! He's still an idiot and you're gonna lose your money. Dusty made the original bet so I guess the odds would be up to him.

well i guess dusty wins. i believe that jesus died to save us and all that but find i hate and want to hurt people and as a christian you dont do that and i found i hated my self more and more every day trying to change the way i felt towards people.

[XBILLYX]

i guess by refusing him i am going to hell yeah me.

[stepinsideissue]

well i guess dusty wins. i believe that jesus died to save us and all that but find i hate and want to hurt people and as a christian you dont do that and i found i hated my self more and more every day trying to change the way i felt towards people.


NO. Jesus may have died to save you but he didn't die to save me.

[SgtD]

i guess by refusing him i am going to hell yeah me.
please change your title to "everybody's thorn" thanks.

[stepinsideissue]

please change your title to "everybody's thorn" thanks.


I know he's a thorn in my side.

[XBILLYX]

please change your title to "everybody's thorn" thanks.

no i wont. i dont care if he didnt die for you.

[SgtD]

no i wont. i dont care if he didnt die for you.
i didn't say Dusty died for me! He didn't even die. I hope he is going to live a logn, full and healthy life actually.

[D1988]

i didn't say Dusty died for me! He didn't even die. I hope he is going to live a logn, full and healthy life actually.

We are all drug free, none of us will die!

[mouseman004]

We are all drug free, none of us will die!

Well, most of us are drug free...

[xsecx]

don't cry for me, I'm already dead.

[D1988]

Well, most of us are drug free...

You are on your way buddy, you will be as awesome as us in no time.

[PROPER JERK]

don't cry for me, I'm already dead.

In Dusty's name we pray, Amen.

[SgtD]

In Dusty's name we pray, Amen.
you see, you're a lousy christian for sure!

[sXe Commish]

Well now...

I've been gone for over 4 months and the first thing I see when I'm ready to make a return in more Chritian garbage. Yes, pure fucking garbage.

Here's the deal my friend. If you're Christian, you're not Edge. Religion is toxic. As toxic as dope and booze - it messes with your head and thus dosn't let you take proper control of your life.

Now I could go on and on about the contradictions and such, but I've noticed the others have covered this in the almost 50 pages of useless "back-and-forth" chatter.

So I'll make it simple for you so that maybe you can stop ready that big old miss-translated half-assed book you call a bible and start thinking for yourself.

Jesus never existed, plain and simple. There was never even a man born of the name Jesus who ever claimed to be the messiah at any given time through the almost 10 000 years of human history (no you idiots, the planet isn't 4000 years old stop ready the fucking bible). Jesus is simple the personification of the SUN (not SON) as it passes through the astrological house of Pisces, YES STARS.

That's right mr... Your King James bible which has hundreds of miss-translations isn't a book on religion it has more to do with astrology then anything.

Infact things like "Bethlehem" arn't even supposed to be places on Earth but rather places in the sky. Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread" which is the symbol of Harvest and Wheat - which just happens to be the items the Virgin represents. By Virgin I mean VIRGO... They say the Son was born in Bethlehem... WRONG the SUN rose from the horizon right below the Sirius star after the 3 brightest stars of Orions' Belt aligned (curiously called the 3 wise-men). It ROSE in the Virgo constilation who's numerical symbol happens to be an M. Which explains why most virgin myths begin with M... Maya, Marry, Mises, ect ect.

Now I can go on for days about how the Christian religion is simply the worship of the SUN but then again I'm probably wrong and God only put all them' dinosaurs up to "test" us.

[mouseman004]

Well now...

I've been gone for over 4 months and the first thing I see when I'm ready to make a return in more Chritian garbage. Yes, pure fucking garbage.

Here's the deal my friend. If you're Christian, you're not Edge. Religion is toxic. As toxic as dope and booze - it messes with your head and thus dosn't let you take proper control of your life.

Now I could go on and on about the contradictions and such, but I've noticed the others have covered this in the almost 50 pages of useless "back-and-forth" chatter.

So I'll make it simple for you so that maybe you can stop ready that big old miss-translated half-assed book you call a bible and start thinking for yourself.

Jesus never existed, plain and simple. There was never even a man born of the name Jesus who ever claimed to be the messiah at any given time through the almost 10 000 years of human history (no you idiots, the planet isn't 4000 years old stop ready the fucking bible). Jesus is simple the personification of the SUN (not SON) as it passes through the astrological house of Pisces, YES STARS.

That's right mr... Your King James bible which has hundreds of miss-translations isn't a book on religion it has more to do with astrology then anything.

Infact things like "Bethlehem" arn't even supposed to be places on Earth but rather places in the sky. Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread" which is the symbol of Harvest and Wheat - which just happens to be the items the Virgin represents. By Virgin I mean VIRGO... They say the Son was born in Bethlehem... WRONG the SUN rose from the horizon right below the Sirius star after the 3 brightest stars of Orions' Belt aligned (curiously called the 3 wise-men). It ROSE in the Virgo constilation who's numerical symbol happens to be an M. Which explains why most virgin myths begin with M... Maya, Marry, Mises, ect ect.

Now I can go on for days about how the Christian religion is simply the worship of the SUN but then again I'm probably wrong and God only put all them' dinosaurs up to "test" us.

You might want to watch it with the way you explain things. For you to come out and tell somebody that what they beleive just simply isn't true and call them idiots for beleiving it doesnt really make you sound smart, it makes you sound like an arrogant prick. I am not a christian, and anybody who has ever studied history is able to point out the contradictions in christianity, but if it is what people want to beleive then let them do it, you are in no position to tell them they are wrong. And I really don't know where you got all this information about astrology and its connection to the terms of christianity, but i am pretty sure most of it is not true, or at least speculation.

I am not even Christian and your post pissed me off, only because you are an 18 year old trying to tell millions of people they are idiots for their beleifs. Yeah christianity is a bunch of Hypocritical BS but you are in no position to dictate to people where their religion came from nor are you in any position to tell them they are wrong. If you don't beleive it, thats fine, nobody is telling you too, but if others want to beleive it then that is their right and they don't need to be judged by people like you.

[xsecx]

You might want to watch it with the way you explain things. For you to come out and tell somebody that what they beleive just simply isn't true and call them idiots for beleiving it doesnt really make you sound smart, it makes you sound like an arrogant prick. I am not a christian, and anybody who has ever studied history is able to point out the contradictions in christianity, but if it is what people want to beleive then let them do it, you are in no position to tell them they are wrong. And I really don't know where you got all this information about astrology and its connection to the terms of christianity, but i am pretty sure most of it is not true, or at least speculation.

I am not even Christian and your post pissed me off, only because you are an 18 year old trying to tell millions of people they are idiots for their beleifs. Yeah christianity is a bunch of Hypocritical BS but you are in no position to dictate to people where their religion came from nor are you in any position to tell them they are wrong. If you don't beleive it, thats fine, nobody is telling you too, but if others want to beleive it then that is their right and they don't need to be judged by people like you.

his post would have been better if it cited sources of his information, otherwise it's just his opinion with no supporting evidence.

[XBILLYX]

Well now...

I've been gone for over 4 months and the first thing I see when I'm ready to make a return in more Chritian garbage. Yes, pure fucking garbage.

Here's the deal my friend. If you're Christian, you're not Edge. Religion is toxic. As toxic as dope and booze - it messes with your head and thus dosn't let you take proper control of your life.

Now I could go on and on about the contradictions and such, but I've noticed the others have covered this in the almost 50 pages of useless "back-and-forth" chatter.

So I'll make it simple for you so that maybe you can stop ready that big old miss-translated half-assed book you call a bible and start thinking for yourself.

Jesus never existed, plain and simple. There was never even a man born of the name Jesus who ever claimed to be the messiah at any given time through the almost 10 000 years of human history (no you idiots, the planet isn't 4000 years old stop ready the fucking bible). Jesus is simple the personification of the SUN (not SON) as it passes through the astrological house of Pisces, YES STARS.

That's right mr... Your King James bible which has hundreds of miss-translations isn't a book on religion it has more to do with astrology then anything.

Infact things like "Bethlehem" arn't even supposed to be places on Earth but rather places in the sky. Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread" which is the symbol of Harvest and Wheat - which just happens to be the items the Virgin represents. By Virgin I mean VIRGO... They say the Son was born in Bethlehem... WRONG the SUN rose from the horizon right below the Sirius star after the 3 brightest stars of Orions' Belt aligned (curiously called the 3 wise-men). It ROSE in the Virgo constilation who's numerical symbol happens to be an M. Which explains why most virgin myths begin with M... Maya, Marry, Mises, ect ect.

Now I can go on for days about how the Christian religion is simply the worship of the SUN but then again I'm probably wrong and God only put all them' dinosaurs up to "test" us.

wow is all i got on this one.

[XbriX]

You might want to watch it with the way you explain things. For you to come out and tell somebody that what they beleive just simply isn't true and call them idiots for beleiving it doesnt really make you sound smart, it makes you sound like an arrogant prick. I am not a christian, and anybody who has ever studied history is able to point out the contradictions in christianity, but if it is what people want to beleive then let them do it, you are in no position to tell them they are wrong. And I really don't know where you got all this information about astrology and its connection to the terms of christianity, but i am pretty sure most of it is not true, or at least speculation.

I am not even Christian and your post pissed me off, only because you are an 18 year old trying to tell millions of people they are idiots for their beleifs. Yeah christianity is a bunch of Hypocritical BS but you are in no position to dictate to people where their religion came from nor are you in any position to tell them they are wrong. If you don't beleive it, thats fine, nobody is telling you too, but if others want to beleive it then that is their right and they don't need to be judged by people like you.

I agree, that post was insulting and disrespectful

[different// :)]

so you didn't read it too closely did you?

1. you say you are sxe. therefore you think drinking is wrong.
2. you are christian, and think that god is flawless, however jesus drank wine.
3. jesus drank wine-> he can't be flawless like you say. that's the contradiction



But he wasn't addicited.
I am new to Straight Edge.
So I don't know all the "rules"

But I am a strong believer in God.

The bible does say that God doesn't want you harming his palace. (your body)
and this uncludes drinking. But over drinking is what is really harming your body. not occasional glasses of wine.

I understand that sxe does not believe in drinking. But well,...I don't even know what to say. Personally yes I think drinking is totally wrong. But God is the ruler of all. And I follow after him with all my heart.

So why can't you be a Christian and Straight Edge?

...
Maybe I shouldn't have written back to this.
But this is my opinion.

[D1988]

But he wasn't addicited.
I am new to Straight Edge.
So I don't know all the "rules"

But I am a strong believer in God.

The bible does say that God doesn't want you harming his palace. (your body)
and this uncludes drinking. But over drinking is what is really harming your body. not occasional glasses of wine.

I understand that sxe does not believe in drinking. But well,...I don't even know what to say. Personally yes I think drinking is totally wrong. But God is the ruler of all. And I follow after him with all my heart.

So why can't you be a Christian and Straight Edge?

...
Maybe I shouldn't have written back to this.
But this is my opinion.

If you go back to page 1 and read through this thread, your questions will be answered multiple times.

[sXe Commish]

You guys are right, I did post too agressively and was under alot of stress at the time.

But you all have to realise the hardship Christianity has caused me. I've done my research, I've read my books and studied in religion classes and I have made my choice. My family seems to think I'm a failure if I'm not Christian and I was harassed at my Christian school which is why I have so much hate for it.

But I do still stand by the stuff I said. And If you all want some sources then I would be more then happy to re-post what I said without attacks and insults and of course with my various sources.

I encourage you in the meantime to look up the life of Jesus and compare it to the life of Horus. The similarities should keep you busy while I write up something worth posting, unlike my last reply.

[xsecx]

You guys are right, I did post too agressively and was under alot of stress at the time.

But you all have to realise the hardship Christianity has caused me. I've done my research, I've read my books and studied in religion classes and I have made my choice. My family seems to think I'm a failure if I'm not Christian and I was harassed at my Christian school which is why I have so much hate for it.

But I do still stand by the stuff I said. And If you all want some sources then I would be more then happy to re-post what I said without attacks and insults and of course with my various sources.

I encourage you in the meantime to look up the life of Jesus and compare it to the life of Horus. The similarities should keep you busy while I write up something worth posting, unlike my last reply.


attacks and insults are fine, but they should always be backed up by something.

[sXe Commish]

attacks and insults are fine, but they should always be backed up by something.

Either way I need to learn to control my anger. I've just had so many Christians ruin so many of my days that I've developped somewhat of a hate for them.

And like previously said, I am only 18 and I can't be going around blabbing without some backup.

I'll come up with a nice little report you can all spend an afternoon reading which will hopefully clear my insults up into facts.

[~*PunkPixyDust*~]

Of course you can. I see no conflicting values. I know I'm both. :p

[D1988]

Of course you can. I see no conflicting values. I know I'm both. :p

Maybe you should read the 45 previous pages of this thread?

[~*PunkPixyDust*~]

Maybe you should read the 45 previous pages of this thread?

Oh like I have that kind of attention span....or that much time. I'd lecture you but I'm losing focus aready...besides I'll always believe what I beleive. He asked and I gave my reply. I didn't expect anyone to agree or not with me. I don't really care. I just awnserd the queition.

[D1988]

Oh like I have that kind of attention span....or that much time. I'd lecture you but I'm losing focus aready...besides I'll always believe what I beleive. He asked and I gave my reply. I didn't expect anyone to agree or not with me. I don't really care. I just awnserd the queition.

Please, lecture me.

[rodrigo]

Oh like I have that kind of attention span....or that much time. I'd lecture you but I'm losing focus aready...besides I'll always believe what I beleive. He asked and I gave my reply. I didn't expect anyone to agree or not with me. I don't really care. I just awnserd the queition.
whats the point on joining a message board and posting in a thread about discussion if you are not gonna discuss? in fact you just answered a question with no back up, so you answer really sucks... i know you probably are going to say something like "whatever" or just excuse yourself from reading [wich goes back to the first like i wrote], so probably this post wont really do anything to you and you will just ignore it, but i felt that i should let you know.

[chadfitzy]

heres my two cence on it. if you think jesus is perfect youve never read the bible and you just base your opinion on what people tell you. he was half man (unpure) and half god (pure) so yes he was unperfect. especially as a child. he would screw up sometimes. everyone in the bible did. if you havent guessed yet im christian

[xsecx]

heres my two cence on it. if you think jesus is perfect youve never read the bible and you just base your opinion on what people tell you. he was half man (unpure) and half god (pure) so yes he was unperfect. especially as a child. he would screw up sometimes. everyone in the bible did. if you havent guessed yet im christian

so where in the bible, specifically did jesus screw up? If he wasn't perfect, then why would you worship him and why would be in a position to die for your sins?

[chadfitzy]

when he was a kid he would disobay his parents and do normal human acts, such as fighting with other kids and things like this. we worship him because we believe he is the son of god and of man. i not trying to be a prick and force my religion on you if thats the way it comes off. if that is the way it comes of........sorry

[stepinsideissue]

when he was a kid he would disobay his parents and do normal human acts, such as fighting with other kids and things like this. we worship him because we believe he is the son of god and of man. i not trying to be a prick and force my religion on you if thats the way it comes off. if that is the way it comes of........sorry


So where in the bible are these stories of how jesus was a "bad" and normal kid. And if your earlier post is true then the bible is nothing but lies and hipocrocy because jesus was supposed to be the the lamb without sin and the sacrifice for your sins. He died sinless so you didn't have to die for your sins.

See I remember Johna and the whale, Noha's Ark, David and Golith but not jesus the neighborhood bully beats up lil muhattma for stealing his favorite sandals.


How about some specific examples here. Give us vesrus to back this up!

[D1988]

See I remember Johna and the whale, Noha's Ark, David and Golith but not jesus the neighborhood bully beats up lil muhattma for stealing his favorite sandals.

hahaha, now thats a quote.

[rodrigo]

we worship him because we believe he is the son of god and of man.
funny thing is, thats not true

[xsecx]

when he was a kid he would disobay his parents and do normal human acts, such as fighting with other kids and things like this. we worship him because we believe he is the son of god and of man. i not trying to be a prick and force my religion on you if thats the way it comes off. if that is the way it comes of........sorry

so which verses were these?

[force majeure]

so where in the bible, specifically did jesus screw up? If he wasn't perfect, then why would you worship him and why would be in a position to die for your sins?

well : matthew 15:21 -28
otherwise known as the faith of the canaanite woman

in this he judges a woman falsely and has to be persuaded to heal her daughter.

- proof that jesus did make mistakes, (if you believe the bible that is.)

[xsecx]

well : matthew 15:21 -28
otherwise known as the faith of the canaanite woman

in this he judges a woman falsely and has to be persuaded to heal her daughter.

- proof that jesus did make mistakes, (if you believe the bible that is.)

21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

That doesn't read to me that jesus made a mistake at all. What makes you think that?

[stepinsideissue]

hahaha, now thats a quote.

That's how I roll. Be glad I reduced the corn!

[chadfitzy]

ok. you stumped me. sorry for the argument

[nplang08]

To preface, first of all I am not straightedge but most of my best friends are. Also, as much as I would like to be straightedge, I know for a fact that its not fair to try and be something your not, because I occasionally indulge in the alcoholic beverage or two. But I respect the hell out those who are truly straightedge because you guys have some of the determination and fortitude that the rest of this world needs. With that said, I thought I would add my two cents on this subject. Not that I think that straightedge kids can or cannot be Christian and straightedge. I believe that this is more of a subjunctive question because theres many underlying factors. First and foremost, the fact that many different sects of Christianity do not believe the exact same thing. Evangelicals and newborn Christians, for instance, believe that those who do not change their wickedness will be cursed to the depths of hell. I myself am a Catholic, so I think it is important to being up a point that deals more with I believe in. In reference to xsecx claim that Jesus is God, that isn't necessarily true, at least from a Catholic's point of view. Catholics believe that Jesus did not become our savior until after he was resurrected. The idea we have to keep in mind here is that Jesus is not God, but the human manifestation of God, gift-wrapped with all the human qualities we all share. The gospels make reference of this in the form of a tale of Jesus' early life. In Luke:

Luke 2:41-52
The Boy Jesus at the Temple
41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."

49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Not only did Jesus make a mistake by not returning to his parents, but the bible states that "Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them" (Luke 2:51). This is the only account of Jesus life in any of the four gospels. With that said, Jesus was also tempted in the desert by the devil himself. Both Catholic and non-catholic scholars believe that this was a sign of Jesus' humanity. The devil wouldn't tempt Jesus if he thought he was in fact just God on earth. This story can be found in Luke 4:1-14.

I hope this answer's xsecx question to xmegx about whether Jesus is perfect, because he is not. In fact, the existence of the humanity of Jesus negates any possibility that he can or was ever perfect. After the Resurrection is a different story, but humanity and perfection are oxymorons when referring to Jesus as God. It's just an incorrect relation. God is, among other things, onmipresent and omniscient. While the bible tells of Jesus having amazing powers, he was neither of these. He was limited to his qualities as a human. The best example I think of that would prove Jesus' imperfection was trashing the bizarre in front of the temple (John 2:12-25). There was genuine anger in Jesus when he did this, even screaming at those turning the temple into a marketplace. My point of all this is that I think the six degrees of separation that's being used to say that Christian and straightedge beliefs contradict is flawed, only because the reasoning is that Jesus is God. Since he is not God until the resurrection, its safe to assume that Jesus' consumption of wine, while unacceptable to the straightedge world, has to be taken with a grain of salt because Jesus was fallible in those times before the resurrection of Christ. Now I'm not taking sides in all of this, I just thought it would be appropriate to state some facts and clear up some of the confusion. Thanks for accepting my membership, I look forward to posting in the future.

[nplang08]

wow when i said subjunctive i meant to say subjective. my bad.

[xsecx]

To preface, first of all I am not straightedge but most of my best friends are. Also, as much as I would like to be straightedge, I know for a fact that its not fair to try and be something your not, because I occasionally indulge in the alcoholic beverage or two. But I respect the hell out those who are truly straightedge because you guys have some of the determination and fortitude that the rest of this world needs. With that said, I thought I would add my two cents on this subject. Not that I think that straightedge kids can or cannot be Christian and straightedge. I believe that this is more of a subjunctive question because theres many underlying factors. First and foremost, the fact that many different sects of Christianity do not believe the exact same thing. Evangelicals and newborn Christians, for instance, believe that those who do not change their wickedness will be cursed to the depths of hell. I myself am a Catholic, so I think it is important to being up a point that deals more with I believe in. In reference to xsecx claim that Jesus is God, that isn't necessarily true, at least from a Catholic's point of view. Catholics believe that Jesus did not become our savior until after he was resurrected. The idea we have to keep in mind here is that Jesus is not God, but the human manifestation of God, gift-wrapped with all the human qualities we all share. The gospels make reference of this in the form of a tale of Jesus' early life. In Luke:

Luke 2:41-52
The Boy Jesus at the Temple
41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."

49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Not only did Jesus make a mistake by not returning to his parents, but the bible states that "Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them" (Luke 2:51). This is the only account of Jesus life in any of the four gospels. With that said, Jesus was also tempted in the desert by the devil himself. Both Catholic and non-catholic scholars believe that this was a sign of Jesus' humanity. The devil wouldn't tempt Jesus if he thought he was in fact just God on earth. This story can be found in Luke 4:1-14.

I hope this answer's xsecx question to xmegx about whether Jesus is perfect, because he is not. In fact, the existence of the humanity of Jesus negates any possibility that he can or was ever perfect. After the Resurrection is a different story, but humanity and perfection are oxymorons when referring to Jesus as God. It's just an incorrect relation. God is, among other things, onmipresent and omniscient. While the bible tells of Jesus having amazing powers, he was neither of these. He was limited to his qualities as a human. The best example I think of that would prove Jesus' imperfection was trashing the bizarre in front of the temple (John 2:12-25). There was genuine anger in Jesus when he did this, even screaming at those turning the temple into a marketplace. My point of all this is that I think the six degrees of separation that's being used to say that Christian and straightedge beliefs contradict is flawed, only because the reasoning is that Jesus is God. Since he is not God until the resurrection, its safe to assume that Jesus' consumption of wine, while unacceptable to the straightedge world, has to be taken with a grain of salt because Jesus was fallible in those times before the resurrection of Christ. Now I'm not taking sides in all of this, I just thought it would be appropriate to state some facts and clear up some of the confusion. Thanks for accepting my membership, I look forward to posting in the future.

here's the point though, humans have 2 parents and can't perform miracles and don't refer to themselves as god.

Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)

Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)


the entire point of the christ figure is that he is perfect and without sin, that's why he's capable of taking on the sins of humanity. If he was just simply a human until he died, then why was he the only one? What would make him unique and then, why would he have been the only one?

[nplang08]

here's the point though, humans have 2 parents and can't perform miracles and don't refer to themselves as god.

Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)

Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)


the entire point of the christ figure is that he is perfect and without sin, that's why he's capable of taking on the sins of humanity. If he was just simply a human until he died, then why was he the only one? What would make him unique and then, why would he have been the only one?


I think you missed my point though. I agree totally that the CHRIST FIGURE was perfect, but only after the resurrection. The idea that there exists in Jesus of Nazareth, the child born of the virgin Mary, a certain humanity, different from being totally human, negates any idea of his perfection until after the resurrection. This is why Catholics celebrate Easter. It symbolizes the forgiveness of our sins. Your second quote solidifies my answer. Martha acknowledges that her brother will rise AFTER the Resurrection. When Jesus is the resurrection and the life, it only foreshadows his death on the cross. The Christ figure cannot be fully recognized until the resurrection. You have to understand that there are things in the bible that cannot be taken literally. In your first quote, he is speaking of spirituality. Its a hunger and thirst for faith. Not physical food. I understand Jesus was not totally human, but he had humanity and divinity during his lifetime, making it impossible for him to be perfect. Is he the Son of God? yes. Was he born of the virgin Mary? yes. Was he able to save our sins before the resurrection? no. Galations makes a clear reference to Jesus being a man under the law: (Gal. 4:5-6) But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Although he was divine, he was still born of a human. Perfection is only achieved after the resurrection, so when Jesus drank the wine, he was not perfect.

[xsecx]

I think you missed my point though. I agree totally that the CHRIST FIGURE was perfect, but only after the resurrection. The idea that there exists in Jesus of Nazareth, the child born of the virgin Mary, a certain humanity, different from being totally human, negates any idea of his perfection until after the resurrection. This is why Catholics celebrate Easter. It symbolizes the forgiveness of our sins. Your second quote solidifies my answer. Martha acknowledges that her brother will rise AFTER the Resurrection. When Jesus is the resurrection and the life, it only foreshadows his death on the cross. The Christ figure cannot be fully recognized until the resurrection. You have to understand that there are things in the bible that cannot be taken literally. In your first quote, he is speaking of spirituality. Its a hunger and thirst for faith. Not physical food. I understand Jesus was not totally human, but he had humanity and divinity during his lifetime, making it impossible for him to be perfect. Is he the Son of God? yes. Was he born of the virgin Mary? yes. Was he able to save our sins before the resurrection? no. Galations makes a clear reference to Jesus being a man under the law: (Gal. 4:5-6) But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Although he was divine, he was still born of a human. Perfection is only achieved after the resurrection, so when Jesus drank the wine, he was not perfect.

No, I got your point, the scripture just doesn't support it. Jesus in the scripture refers to himself as salvation and god while living as a "human", so how would he then not be perfect? Your reasoning isn't sound and negates the divinity of jesus during his life, when in actual context of the bible doesn't make sense. The resurrection was the final act of divinity, not the first. How can he have divinity and not be perfect? How can he be human and not without sin? Or do you believe that jesus did sin? How can jesus make representations that he is god, like he did in the first quote, if you're saying he wasn't? How does that reconcile within your beliefs? If jesus was truly the son of god, why would he only be perfect after death?

[nplang08]

No, I got your point, the scripture just doesn't support it. Jesus in the scripture refers to himself as salvation and god while living as a "human", so how would he then not be perfect? Your reasoning isn't sound and negates the divinity of jesus during his life, when in actual context of the bible doesn't make sense. The resurrection was the final act of divinity, not the first. How can he have divinity and not be perfect? How can he be human and not without sin? Or do you believe that jesus did sin? How can jesus make representations that he is god, like he did in the first quote, if you're saying he wasn't? How does that reconcile within your beliefs? If jesus was truly the son of god, why would he only be perfect after death?

Your still confusing being "human" with the idea of humanity. It's taught through scripture that Jesus was both divine and human, and that in fact is what made him unique. I never stated that the resurrection was the first act of divinity, all of his miracles can be considered divine acts. The resurrection was though the act that him totally divine, totally perfect. I know that Jesus was not totally human, he was "humane" though and there existed a humanity. My reasoning is perfectly sound. Of course Jesus said he was the salvation of God. He also said he was the bread and the life. But can you tell me when he became that salvation, that bread? it wasn't when was born, it was after the resurrection. If he were not both of both human and divine nature, only divine, Jesus would not have had to die for the salvation of all our sins. This argument has crossed some very philosophical paths now haha.

We are now arguing something that scholars have been debating for years: how can Jesus have both human and divine natures. The scriptures show that he does, but how is this possible. I think you bring up some valid points about the perfection of Jesus during his lifetime, but I also find it hard to believe considering he had proven many times in the gospels that he did have a human nature (bazaar at the temple, temptation in the desert, getting lost in Luke). Thats why when I posted my first quote I said this idea of perfection is subjective, not objective. The problem with the scriptures is that they can be interpreted differently. For exmaple you say he called himself the savior, while I say he only inferred what he knew would be true by making those statements.

[xsecx]

Your still confusing being "human" with the idea of humanity. It's taught through scripture that Jesus was both divine and human, and that in fact is what made him unique. I never stated that the resurrection was the first act of divinity, all of his miracles can be considered divine acts. The resurrection was though the act that him totally divine, totally perfect. I know that Jesus was not totally human, he was "humane" though and there existed a humanity. My reasoning is perfectly sound. Of course Jesus said he was the salvation of God. He also said he was the bread and the life. But can you tell me when he became that salvation, that bread? it wasn't when was born, it was after the resurrection. If he were not both of both human and divine nature, only divine, Jesus would not have had to die for the salvation of all our sins. This argument has crossed some very philosophical paths now haha.

We are now arguing something that scholars have been debating for years: how can Jesus have both human and divine natures. The scriptures show that he does, but how is this possible. I think you bring up some valid points about the perfection of Jesus during his lifetime, but I also find it hard to believe considering he had proven many times in the gospels that he did have a human nature (bazaar at the temple, temptation in the desert, getting lost in Luke). Thats why when I posted my first quote I said this idea of perfection is subjective, not objective. The problem with the scriptures is that they can be interpreted differently. For exmaple you say he called himself the savior, while I say he only inferred what he knew would be true by making those statements.

Yes, but by being divine it kind of overrules any human faults. How can something be divine, but faulty? Jesus didn't speak while he was alive that following him was the only way to salvation? The entire point is that, the same with god any actions that were done, were perfect and above human criticism. Would you say that god was wrong for the destruction of soddom and gomarah? Or the flood? If so, then how can you a human, judge and disagree with the actions of your god? What jesus wrong for providing wine to a wedding, an act of divinity?

[nplang08]

Yes, but by being divine it kind of overrules any human faults. How can something be divine, but faulty? Jesus didn't speak while he was alive that following him was the only way to salvation? The entire point is that, the same with god any actions that were done, were perfect and above human criticism. Would you say that god was wrong for the destruction of soddom and gomarah? Or the flood? If so, then how can you a human, judge and disagree with the actions of your god? What jesus wrong for providing wine to a wedding, an act of divinity?

I guess the last question you pose is harder for me to answer since I am not straightedge. Do I personally believe that Jesus was wrong for turning water into wine? no, but thats just because I am a Catholic who occasionally drinks (don't do drugs though). It gets tricky when you bring up the Old Testament and the New Testament when it comes to God's actions, because God was directly involved in the Old Testament, the creation story, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, Moses, etc. but not in the New Testament. With the inception of the Holy Spirit being presented in the New Testament, there was no need for God's direct involvement with us. Free will I think is the term that may be most important here. The thing is the I'm not too into what other sects of Christianity are taught, all I know is that evangelism and new-born Christianity scares the shit out of me lol. I know that the Catholic church teaches that Jesus' death and resurrection implies that your sins can be forgiven, as long as you totally repent. God understands the fact that we are human, and humans make mistakes. Now this is going back to New Testament God, not to say that the God in the two books are two different Gods, but God as he was portrayed in the Old Testament was a little more wrathful. Again, I think you being up some awesome points, and I can understand from your point of view how it would be contradictory to be Christian and straightedge. I guess the truth of the matter is theres a crapload of proof for both our points in the Old and New Testament, which I still, as a Catholic, don't really understand why that is. Guess why I have to take some things on faith. Dude I like this site, theres intelligent arguments on here as opposed to "fuck you your wrong" and "your a douschebag".

[optimismdefeats]

I would like to say

Jesus drank wine, yes he did but the word drank is past tense. I doubt he drinks it anymore. Anyway, to get drunk is a sin, alcohol in all forms is allowed sensibly, but we are given a choice, and if we don't want any of the booze thats fine with God.

[xsecx]

I would like to say

Jesus drank wine, yes he did but the word drank is past tense. I doubt he drinks it anymore. Anyway, to get drunk is a sin, alcohol in all forms is allowed sensibly, but we are given a choice, and if we don't want any of the booze thats fine with God.

so it's fine with god that you think he's wrong? Isn't that blasphemy? Or are you saying that you don't think there's anything wrong with the consumption of alcohol?

[xGriffox]

http://churchburning.org/rutherford-church-fire.jpg

[Segadoway]

http://churchburning.org/rutherford-church-fire.jpg

that is some nice art there, is that charcoal shading i see?

[chadfitzy]

i like fingerpainting better, ahaha, im kiding

[CarlaRant]

I just spent 1.5 hours reading through this thread. There has been some great discussion as well as some ignorant posts from various people. I think it's interesting that it has drug up after being dormant for one month. Since it already has, I'll add just a few comments:

Historically and culturally, the oinos (wine) was prominent at the dinner table in the Middle East. In fact, if you believe in the accuracy of the New Testament of the Christian Bible, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2:1-22). Unlike John the Baptist, Jesus did drink wine (quite possibly the reason why Baptists are so anti-alcohol nowadays). Followers of Jesus were merely warned to not consume to drunkedness because it degrades the body, thus the temple where the Holy Spirit resides. There are other passages in both the Old and New Testaments that have the same warning because of its possible dangers.

Logically one must think Jesus' actions were incorrect if the belief is held that anyone that consumes alcohol is in the wrong; not only did he partake, but he provided the alcohol in a the few recorded cases. However, if someone is a Christian, he believes that Jesus was the Son of Man and of God and died for humanity's sins. According to Jewish law, the animal (typically a lamb) used in the repentance sacrifice would need to be deemed "blemish free," also known as perfect. For Jesus to be the sacrifice for humanity's sins, he would have been perfect as well. If someone subscribes to this the latter belief that Jesus is the Son of God and perfect, the attitude towards alcohol, specifically wine, will need to change. Holding oneself higher than Jesus based on a straightedge lifestyle would be blasphemy.

It all boils down to perspective. I have chosen a straightedge lifestyle because I didn't like how I was on drugs, but I don't look down on my husband or friends who drink. Athough I do give people who smoke hell. HA!

[chadfitzy]

um, i probably said something stupid in there, i changed since i posted that

[Segadoway]

i like fingerpainting better, ahaha, im kiding

dont kide me! Kider! Stop kiding me! Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!

[xsecx]

dont kide me! Kider! Stop kiding me! Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!

I can and will just start deleting posts from you.

[xsecx]

I just spent 1.5 hours reading through this thread. There has been some great discussion as well as some ignorant posts from various people. I think it's interesting that it has drug up after being dormant for one month. Since it already has, I'll add just a few comments:

Historically and culturally, the oinos (wine) was prominent at the dinner table in the Middle East. In fact, if you believe in the accuracy of the New Testament of the Christian Bible, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2:1-22). Unlike John the Baptist, Jesus did drink wine (quite possibly the reason why Baptists are so anti-alcohol nowadays). Followers of Jesus were merely warned to not consume to drunkedness because it degrades the body, thus the temple where the Holy Spirit resides. There are other passages in both the Old and New Testaments that have the same warning because of its possible dangers.

Logically one must think Jesus' actions were incorrect if the belief is held that anyone that consumes alcohol is in the wrong; not only did he partake, but he provided the alcohol in a the few recorded cases. However, if someone is a Christian, he believes that Jesus was the Son of Man and of God and died for humanity's sins. According to Jewish law, the animal (typically a lamb) used in the repentance sacrifice would need to be deemed "blemish free," also known as perfect. For Jesus to be the sacrifice for humanity's sins, he would have been perfect as well. If someone subscribes to this the latter belief that Jesus is the Son of God and perfect, the attitude towards alcohol, specifically wine, will need to change. Holding oneself higher than Jesus based on a straightedge lifestyle would be blasphemy.

It all boils down to perspective. I have chosen a straightedge lifestyle because I didn't like how I was on drugs, but I don't look down on my husband or friends who drink. Athough I do give people who smoke hell. HA!

My main problem is that people tend to think that they can view the religion with modern eyes rather than viewing it within context. Hey I have no problems with homosexuals or women, so I'll just ignore the parts of the bible that condemn homosexuality and are sexist. People hold on to religious views by morphing them to fit them rather than the other way around and simply ignoring the parts that don't fit with their world view.

I don't look down on people that drink, but I do however deeply believe that it's unnecessary and that the world would be a much better place without it. and I also think god was wrong about a lot of things.

[Segadoway]

I can and will just start deleting posts from you.

fine!

[lefty8595]

I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just something I choose not to do, which is what edge is all about. It's just a choice. That's all it is. I don't think that edge contradicts Christianity because I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just a choice. Yeah, people will say "It's a drug so it's wrong!" but if you look at it that way then everything is a drug. People who go eat a big meal from McDonalds every day are polluting their bodies too. Moderation is key.

[XTrueColorsX]

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/heresies/lackeys-article-on-wine.pdf

[xsecx]

I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just something I choose not to do, which is what edge is all about. It's just a choice. That's all it is. I don't think that edge contradicts Christianity because I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just a choice. Yeah, people will say "It's a drug so it's wrong!" but if you look at it that way then everything is a drug. People who go eat a big meal from McDonalds every day are polluting their bodies too. Moderation is key.

why don't you chose to do it? If there's nothing wrong with it, why don't you do it? Do you think the world would be better place without alcohol? Do you think that alcohol consumption is a positive thing that should be encouraged?

[straightXed]

I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just something I choose not to do, which is what edge is all about. It's just a choice. That's all it is. I don't think that edge contradicts Christianity because I don't think that drinking is wrong. It's just a choice. Yeah, people will say "It's a drug so it's wrong!" but if you look at it that way then everything is a drug. People who go eat a big meal from McDonalds every day are polluting their bodies too. Moderation is key.

I find myself wanting to ask the exact same questions dusty has asked. I also think its a very strenuous and flawed argument to liken everything to drugs.

[w.wright690]

i think that people can hold the key values of christianity and still hold to the straight edge lifestyle. being anti-alchohol and choosing not to drink it are two completely different things. choosing not to drink alchohol because it poisons your body is a personal choice and someone can make that choice without saying that alchohol is "evil" or unholy. so i think that someone could hold fast to their christian beliefs while still choosing not to drink, smoke, do drugs, or anything like that. if someone chooses to not drink, smoke, do drugs, or have sex before marragedoes that make them straight edge? because a christian can do all the things without defying scripture.

[xsecx]

i think that people can hold the key values of christianity and still hold to the straight edge lifestyle. being anti-alchohol and choosing not to drink it are two completely different things. choosing not to drink alchohol because it poisons your body is a personal choice and someone can make that choice without saying that alchohol is "evil" or unholy. so i think that someone could hold fast to their christian beliefs while still choosing not to drink, smoke, do drugs, or anything like that. if someone chooses to not drink, smoke, do drugs, or have sex before marragedoes that make them straight edge? because a christian can do all the things without defying scripture.

Yeah, but being straight edge is about more than simply choosing not to drink. It's an active rejection of drugs and alcohol. I don't really see how someone can claim to be straight edge and not be anti alcohol.

[w.wright690]

Yeah, but being straight edge is about more than simply choosing not to drink. It's an active rejection of drugs and alcohol. I don't really see how someone can claim to be straight edge and not be anti alcohol.

i see what you mean. it just doesnt make sense to me that because of one small detail you have to completely reject every aspect of such a broad religion.

[xsecx]

i see what you mean. it just doesnt make sense to me that because of one small detail you have to completely reject every aspect of such a broad religion.

yeah, but that's what happens when the religion is based on the words and actions of a god and someones personal morality is in conflict with that. The same is true with being vegan for moral reasons and christian. You get caught in a trap that morality changes with time but the religion doesn't.

[xSouthernEdgex]

Way off topic but is this a Revived dead topic or is it a rebirth of a new one?

I vaguely remember seeing one a few years ago that was similar. But i havent been on in a few years so it may be new.

[xSouthernEdgex]

Way off topic but is this a Revived dead topic or is it a rebirth of a new one?

I vaguely remember seeing one a few years ago that was similar. But i havent been on in a few years so it may be new.

maybe I should check the dates. nvm

[w.wright690]

yeah, but that's what happens when the religion is based on the words and actions of a god and someones personal morality is in conflict with that. The same is true with being vegan for moral reasons and christian. You get caught in a trap that morality changes with time but the religion doesn't.

the thing about christianity is that most(logical) christians believe that if you believe the main, fundemental aspecs of the faith your are accepted into God's book of the saved. that is if you believe god created the heavens and earth, he is all powerful and all knowing, and that jesus came down and died to take away the burden of sin. An example of this sort of leeway that christians use is evolution. there are many people that believe that evolution happened but God started it all. they consider themselves christians because they believe the fundementals. personally i dont see anything wrong with that view. Although some would say that controdicts the book of genesis and the creation story there are many theories about it; i wont get into those theories right now. I think it's the same circumstance with alchohol. not a fundumental belief. Because with all the denomonations of the christian church there are many different practices, customs, and beliefs. But they all hold to the fundemental beliefs I listed above.

[xsecx]

the thing about christianity is that most(logical) christians believe that if you believe the main, fundemental aspecs of the faith your are accepted into God's book of the saved. that is if you believe god created the heavens and earth, he is all powerful and all knowing, and that jesus came down and died to take away the burden of sin. An example of this sort of leeway that christians use is evolution. there are many people that believe that evolution happened but God started it all. they consider themselves christians because they believe the fundementals. personally i dont see anything wrong with that view. Although some would say that controdicts the book of genesis and the creation story there are many theories about it; i wont get into those theories right now. I think it's the same circumstance with alchohol. not a fundumental belief. Because with all the denomonations of the christian church there are many different practices, customs, and beliefs. But they all hold to the fundemental beliefs I listed above.

yes, but that's a copout. They're picking and choosing what pieces fit their lives rather than accepting the religion as it is. There are parts of the bible that are completely ridiculous in modern times, but that's because humanity changed, not the "word of god" and it's completely convenient to ignore the pieces of the bible that you don't agree with. That's kind of the point. How can you believe that the bible is holy scripture and then ignore parts of it? Like for instance, being homosexual, or being against the eating of meat or being against the consumption of alcohol. The bible is very specific at either the condemnation of some things, like homosexuality, or the acceptance and promotion of others, alcohol and meat. Are you going to try and tell me that you can be a good christian and think that your god was wrong? How is that not blasphemy? Or do you not believe that jesus was divine and able to perform miracles? I would also argue that one cannot be logical and christian, since the basis of the faith itself is completely illogical.

[w.wright690]

yes, but that's a copout. They're picking and choosing what pieces fit their lives rather than accepting the religion as it is. There are parts of the bible that are completely ridiculous in modern times, but that's because humanity changed, not the "word of god" and it's completely convenient to ignore the pieces of the bible that you don't agree with. That's kind of the point. How can you believe that the bible is holy scripture and then ignore parts of it? Like for instance, being homosexual, or being against the eating of meat or being against the consumption of alcohol. The bible is very specific at either the condemnation of some things, like homosexuality, or the acceptance and promotion of others, alcohol and meat. Are you going to try and tell me that you can be a good christian and think that your god was wrong? How is that not blasphemy? Or do you not believe that jesus was divine and able to perform miracles? I would also argue that one cannot be logical and christian, since the basis of the faith itself is completely illogical.

i disagree that being a christian is illogical. i dont see how the world was just created by some random happening. i cant see how there could be no person to start everything. i dont see how we would be here without a creator. i dont think my god was "wrong". i think its foolish to take the bible completely literally.

[xsecx]

i disagree that being a christian is illogical. i dont see how the world was just created by some random happening. i cant see how there could be no person to start everything. i dont see how we would be here without a creator. i dont think my god was "wrong". i think its foolish to take the bible completely literally.

faith is opposite of logic. christianity is based on faith and therefore illogical.

so you think that drinking alcohol is good and right and something that everyone should do? So which parts can you take literally and which parts shouldn't you? Let me guess, the parts that you agree with are literal, and the ones that don't are allegory, right? Do you believe that the world would be a better place without alcohol? If you don't then how are you straight edge? If you do, then how can you think your god wasn't wrong for providing people alcohol?

[w.wright690]

faith is opposite of logic. christianity is based on faith and therefore illogical.

so you think that drinking alcohol is good and right and something that everyone should do? So which parts can you take literally and which parts shouldn't you? Let me guess, the parts that you agree with are literal, and the ones that don't are allegory, right? Do you believe that the world would be a better place without alcohol? If you don't then how are you straight edge? If you do, then how can you think your god wasn't wrong for providing people alcohol?

explain to me how believing in a god is illogical. you cant just say it then not explain it.
i agree with the entire bible. but if you have ever read the bible you would see that some parts are vague and could be interpreted by different people differently, as is with any written text. for example some people think that the book of genesis was literal. but another theory is that god created evolution. now people didnt just come up with this theory all on their own because they didnt like the idea of no evolution. the bible was written in hebrew and one translation of the first verse is "and god created light" another is "and there was a large bang" one supports the big bang theory but in our bibles today the other translation is used. so people dont randomly choose to change what is in the bible. people do reserch and understand what they're talking about which is key in critisizing something.
i know this has been said in posts before me, but alchohol is a great achievement of the human race and back there was nothing wrong with it. sure people got drunk back then but they didnt do any harm. in today's culture i think the world would be better without it but not back then. also alchohol as a whole isnt bad, people using it irrosponsibly is. and dont say "you should take the bible in context not find exuses like the time it was written" because if you do you should learn something about those times and not speak blindly.

I find it strange that you say that someone cant be straight edge and christian yet all of the straight edge beliefs are christian beliefs. the bible says not to have sex before marriage, and it says not to get drunk on wine(which also applies to drugs). you're practicing christian values and you say you cant be christian? doesnt that seem strange to you?

[xsecx]

explain to me how believing in a god is illogical. you cant just say it then not explain it.


faith is opposite of logic. If your belief in something requires faith, then it is illogical.


Main Entry:
log·ic Listen to the pronunciation of logic
Pronunciation:
\ˈlä-jik\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English logik, from Anglo-French, from Latin logica, from Greek logikē, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason — more at legend
Date:
12th century

1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration

god cannot be inferred nor demonstrated. your belief in god is based on faith, not on anything tangible or testable.



i agree with the entire bible. but if you have ever read the bible you would see that some parts are vague and could be interpreted by different people differently, as is with any written text. for example some people think that the book of genesis was literal. but another theory is that god created evolution. now people didnt just come up with this theory all on their own because they didnt like the idea of no evolution. the bible was written in hebrew and one translation of the first verse is "and god created light" another is "and there was a large bang" one supports the big bang theory but in our bibles today the other translation is used. so people dont randomly choose to change what is in the bible. people do reserch and understand what they're talking about which is key in critisizing something.


See here's the thing about that statement. The idea that god created evolution was only brought about after the concept of evolution was spread as an attempt to reconcile the issues with the creation myth. The bible is a static document, but science and human understanding isn't. Up until Darwin, and awful lot of people thought the creation myth in genesis was literal and correct, but when people started thinking about it they had a crisis of faith, so they had to try to come up with an explanation. People want to hold onto the religion whether or not it actually makes sense. So they come up with ways to play fast and loose with it. The key issue still remains, the bible is not a living document and as morality and humanity grows and evolves, crises in faith will continue and more and more of the bible with stop being literal and become allegory.




i know this has been said in posts before me, but alchohol is a great achievement of the human race and back there was nothing wrong with it. sure people got drunk back then but they didnt do any harm. in today's culture i think the world would be better without it but not back then. also alchohol as a whole isnt bad, people using it irrosponsibly is. and dont say "you should take the bible in context not find exuses like the time it was written" because if you do you should learn something about those times and not speak blindly.


Great achievement? How so, exactly? I'm confused, didn't you just say that the bible talked about the problems of drunkenness? And now you're saying that the problems with drunkards is a modern problem? Are you seriously going to try and say that alcoholism didn't exist in the time of christ and that it wasn't a problem, even then? I mean, wasn't that part of the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed? If alcohol isn't bad, then why don't you use it and suggest that people do it? Your statements appear to be really inconsistent.



I find it strange that you say that someone cant be straight edge and christian yet all of the straight edge beliefs are christian beliefs. the bible says not to have sex before marriage, and it says not to get drunk on wine(which also applies to drugs). you're practicing christian values and you say you cant be christian? doesnt that seem strange to you?

Really? Straight edge isn't about not having sex until marriage. Is about the total and completely abstience from drugs and alcohol. The bible condones and encourages the use of alcohol. Your god created alcohol as a miracle, which is something in direct opposition to what straight edge stands for.

[w.wright690]

well about your first article i would like to say i think it is logical to live as if there is a god to die and find out there isnt than to live as if there isnt a god and to die and find out there is. i think that the millions of people in this world that believe in some sort of a god support the fact that faith counts for something. if no one felt anything than there would never have been any sort of faith. there has to be something there for people to feel it.

the fact that people started looking into the bible's creation story after darwin put his theory out there is true, but proves nothing. before that there wasnt many other supported theories of any other way that the earth came to be. so of course there going to study it after that. why wouldn't they? if they didnt do that they would be questioning their faith, the fact that those link only supports a creator.

my statements are not inconsistent. the people that got drunk back then didnt do any harm. they just walked around smashed, its not like they could get in a car and drive drunk. but it warps the mind. which is why it is wrong on a christian basis. it's much more a problem in today's culture because drunks can do much more harm here.

God created wine as a miracle to provide for his people. his people needed it to complete a wedding in jewish culture. the people werent drunk when he gave them wine. he gave them wine so they could get married. notice how he didnt just give random people alchohol just because. he gave it to them for a special purpose that was necessary.

[xsecx]

well about your first article i would like to say i think it is logical to live as if there is a god to die and find out there isnt than to live as if there isnt a god and to die and find out there is. i think that the millions of people in this world that believe in some sort of a god support the fact that faith counts for something. if no one felt anything than there would never have been any sort of faith. there has to be something there for people to feel it.


This doesn't make any sense, and I'm pretty much convinced at this point that you don't understand what logic means.



the fact that people started looking into the bible's creation story after darwin put his theory out there is true, but proves nothing. before that there wasnt many other supported theories of any other way that the earth came to be. so of course there going to study it after that. why wouldn't they? if they didnt do that they would be questioning their faith, the fact that those link only supports a creator.


It proves nothing? You're seriously not making sense. Do you seriously not understand that what you're doing, and what others before you are doing is reacting to something and then trying to figure out it fits into something that it doesn't? Prior to darwin people believed the creation myth was the literal truth. Do you dispute that? Do you know what made people change their minds about it?



my statements are not inconsistent. the people that got drunk back then didnt do any harm. they just walked around smashed, its not like they could get in a car and drive drunk. but it warps the mind. which is why it is wrong on a christian basis. it's much more a problem in today's culture because drunks can do much more harm here.


what are you basing this on? This is completely and totally historically and medically inaccurate.



God created wine as a miracle to provide for his people. his people needed it to complete a wedding in jewish culture. the people werent drunk when he gave them wine. he gave them wine so they could get married. notice how he didnt just give random people alchohol just because. he gave it to them for a special purpose that was necessary.

What does that have to do with people who are straight edge living in opposition to alcohol? The point was that jesus had no problem with the consumption or distribution of alcohol, something that straight edge people do. Are you trying to say that straight edge people don't have a problem with it?

[CarlaRant]

God created wine as a miracle to provide for his people. his people needed it to complete a wedding in jewish culture. the people werent drunk when he gave them wine. he gave them wine so they could get married. notice how he didnt just give random people alchohol just because. he gave it to them for a special purpose that was necessary.

Hi there, I just wanted to add a few points: There are some scholars that state that Jesus' first miracle of creating wine from water at the wedding was symbolic of the completion of the convenant/marriage between him and the Jewish people.

It was also common knowledge at the time that certain pagan gods were to be prayed to for this same miracle and it was written in rabbinic literature stating that various prophets and rabbis completed the same miracle as well as other miracles. It has been said that Jesus was to complete all of these miracles in addition to his sacrifice for humanity's sins to prove his power and to disprove the sacredness of the others.

[Segadoway]

i really dont like religion, especially christianity.

[xTonyThreatx]

I spent a lot of time reading this the other day, and it's something I've always thought about.
So I talked to my Christ follower buddy about this subject who practically breathes Christian scripture and studies it.
He insisted that any wine Jesus made or consumed was un-alcoholic.
He claims there is proof within the descriptions of wine in the bible that proves it is un-alcoholic. He also mentioned something about not allowing it to ferment for some reason...
But it was 2:00 in the morning, and I was half asleep. I can't recall what he said on that subject.

All I have to say personally on the matter is:
"This ain't no cross on my hand" - Limp Wrist

[SgtD]

http://www.mellbimbo.eu/files/mc_hammer_-_hammer_time.jpg

[xsecx]

I spent a lot of time reading this the other day, and it's something I've always thought about.
So I talked to my Christ follower buddy about this subject who practically breathes Christian scripture and studies it.
He insisted that any wine Jesus made or consumed was un-alcoholic.
He claims there is proof within the descriptions of wine in the bible that proves it is un-alcoholic. He also mentioned something about not allowing it to ferment for some reason...
But it was 2:00 in the morning, and I was half asleep. I can't recall what he said on that subject.

All I have to say personally on the matter is:
"This ain't no cross on my hand" - Limp Wrist

your friend is wrong, there's no scriptural or historical reason to believe that it wasn't alcoholic wine.

[w.wright690]

what do you mean that doesnt make sense? im saying that living a life for god and then dying to find out there is no god is better than living a life not of god and finding out there is a god. it really isnt that complex. maybe you should try reading it again.

i know they didnt do any harm because of common sense, there isnt much damage you can do in 20b.c.

no, im addressing the point you made erlier. what i said was that alchohol was a lot different back then. straight edge people do have a problem with alchohol, but there werent any straight edges back then were there?...And he has a problem with it. he has a problem with people getting drunk off of alchohol which is the reason straight edges are against alchohol. if there was no way to get drunk on alchohol you wouldnt have a problem with it. you and jesus both have a problem with getting drunk. that is the only bad thing about alchohol.

Could you try and just read what im saying instead of just replying with "that doesnt make sense." because all im saying makes sense and it would be great if you could just come up with a good response instead of just mocking it.

[w.wright690]

your friend is wrong, there's no scriptural or historical reason to believe that it wasn't alcoholic wine.

maybe you should try finding out what he was talking about instead of just throwing it out the window.

[xsecx]

maybe you should try finding out what he was talking about instead of just throwing it out the window.
because it's an argument that's been made a lot by modern christians and has already been debunked earlier in this thread. I suggest you read the following: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/controversies/1114796842.html

[xsecx]

what do you mean that doesnt make sense? im saying that living a life for god and then dying to find out there is no god is better than living a life not of god and finding out there is a god. it really isnt that complex. maybe you should try reading it again.

And that doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not belief in god is logical. What you just describe was living in fear, not a logical decision.



i know they didnt do any harm because of common sense, there isnt much damage you can do in 20b.c.

So suicide, rape, incest, murder, etc didn't exist back then and weren't aided by alcohol?
I think your world view is ignorant and naive if you think alcohol is a modern problem.



no, im addressing the point you made erlier. what i said was that alchohol was a lot different back then. straight edge people do have a problem with alchohol, but there werent any straight edges back then were there?...And he has a problem with it. he has a problem with people getting drunk off of alchohol which is the reason straight edges are against alchohol. if there was no way to get drunk on alchohol you wouldnt have a problem with it. you and jesus both have a problem with getting drunk. that is the only bad thing about alchohol.

There were plenty of people back then that had a problem with the consumption of alcohol for moral reasons, jesus just wasn't one of them. Straight Edge people have an issue with the consumption of alcohol at all. Jesus had no problem with the consumption of alcohol and that's the root of the issue. To be straight edge you're saying that you thinking the drinking of any amount of alcohol is wrong and that is in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.




Could you try and just read what im saying instead of just replying with "that doesnt make sense." because all im saying makes sense and it would be great if you could just come up with a good response instead of just mocking it.

a lot of what you've said doesn't make sense. you've said that alcohol was one of the greatest inventions of all time and that it didn't cause problems in the distant past. Both of those statements make no sense.

[xGriffox]

"This ain't no cross on my hand" - Limp Wrist

all that needs be said on this topic. lovers of jesus GTFO!

[xTonyThreatx]

maybe you should try finding out what he was talking about instead of just throwing it out the window.
I threw it out the window too. I figured I would ask him since he isn't Christian and he studies biblical texts far more than any "Christians" of today.

Also, a tad off-topic, but do any other non-christians hate it when they find a really good hardcore/edge band just to find out they are christian?
Then you think, "Well, they have good music, that's what matters."
But then once you get deeper into their music you find that they are nothing but a Jesus preaching Chirstcore band?

[w.wright690]

And that doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not belief in god is logical. What you just describe was living in fear, not a logical decision.

Can you give me your personal deffinition of logic. not the dictionary one that you showed before.


So suicide, rape, incest, murder, etc didn't exist back then and weren't aided by alcohol?
I think your world view is ignorant and naive if you think alcohol is a modern problem.

maybe i made my first statement a little too quickly. those things did happen back then and some were aided by alchohol. but jesus didnt just made it for a wedding, where it was necessary.


There were plenty of people back then that had a problem with the consumption of alcohol for moral reasons, jesus just wasn't one of them. Straight Edge people have an issue with the consumption of alcohol at all. Jesus had no problem with the consumption of alcohol and that's the root of the issue. To be straight edge you're saying that you thinking the drinking of any amount of alcohol is wrong and that is in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.

What are you basing this off of? there were people that drank too much or just drank but didnt get drunk. i have never seen anything that says that there were people who didnt drink at all because its wrong.
Let me ask you this...would you have a problem with alchohol if you couldnt get drunk? im pretty sure the answer is no. you have a problem with getting drunk as did jesus. jesus never said that we are obligated to drink alchohol. although at the last supper he did say that we should remember him. and christians practice that at communion with wine. but they drink like a tablespoon. i see nothing wrong with drinking a tablespoon to remember your god. if you do i guess thats find it just makes no snese to me since the only reason you have a problem with it is that you can get drunk. and you cant get drunk off of a tablespoon.

[xsecx]

then adress them with a response.

I did, you apparently just didn't like it.

[w.wright690]

I threw it out the window too. I figured I would ask him since he isn't Christian and he studies biblical texts far more than any "Christians" of today.

Also, a tad off-topic, but do any other non-christians hate it when they find a really good hardcore/edge band just to find out they are christian?
Then you think, "Well, they have good music, that's what matters."
But then once you get deeper into their music you find that they are nothing but a Jesus preaching Chirstcore band?

i wouldn't say more than any, because you dont know all of them. there are people that study that stuff for there entire lives

[w.wright690]

I did, you apparently just didn't like it.

sorry i messed up making that post

[xTonyThreatx]

i wouldn't say more than any, because you dont know all of them. there are people that study that stuff for there entire lives

Yeah, but a majority of christians haven't even opened a bible.
It's really sad.

[xsecx]

Can you give me your personal deffinition of logic. not the dictionary one that you showed before.


that is my definition of logic, there's no reason for me to have a personal one when that one fits exactly what I've been talking about.




maybe i made my first statement a little too quickly. those things did happen back then and some were aided by alchohol. but jesus didnt just made it for a wedding, where it was necessary.


it wasn't necessary, it was a custom. According to John it happened after they had run out of wine, after the ceremony. It wasn't necessary at all, it was a party. There were plenty of people that didn't drink alcohol at the time. The drinking of alcohol, then and now was part of the culture and something expected and accepted. This was a culture that Jesus accepted and condoned and a culture that people that are straight edge reject.




What are you basing this off of? there were people that drank too much or just drank but didnt get drunk. i have never seen anything that says that there were people who didnt drink at all because its wrong.


buddhism predates christianity and states that the consumption of alcohol is wrong. John the Baptist didn't drink alcohol at all.



Let me ask you this...would you have a problem with alchohol if you couldnt get drunk? im pretty sure the answer is no. you have a problem with getting drunk as did jesus. jesus never said that we are obligated to drink alchohol. although at the last supper he did say that we should remember him. and christians practice that at communion with wine. but they drink like a tablespoon. i see nothing wrong with drinking a tablespoon to remember your god. if you do i guess thats find it just makes no snese to me since the only reason you have a problem with it is that you can get drunk. and you cant get drunk off of a tablespoon.

Your question doesn't make sense, because the issue with alcohol are the effects. If you take away those effects then it doesn't really matter. I have a problem with the consumption of alcohol in any amount for any reason. I have a problem with a religion that condones the use of alcohol while at the same time condemning drunkenness. I believe that it's a pointless substance that should be avoided completely because of what it does and the effects it has on people. I think that anyone who would drink alcohol because of their religion cannot be straight edge, because they clearly do not have a strong moral issue with the consumption of alcohol.

[justice]

Christianity is plagued with contradiction and hypocrisy. I chose to give up those things when I became edge. I do, however believe that there can be an ultimate authority in your life. For a lot of edgers, it is the music, the community, the brotherhood. For me, I do believe in on divine spirit, devoid of human influence. Or destruction.

I don't think that any divine creature would waste his time walking the earth-- therefore, discounting the existence of a messiah, in my opinion.

I do think, for those of us that have been given a second chance at life through straightedge, there must be someone in control. Because I am seldom deserving of the life I have today.

As far as an answer to the original question-- NO. You can not be christian and straight edge.

I like the analogy that if you don't like hardcore, you can't be edge. That's very true. But, I guess, at the same time, if you do live hardcore, you can have other musical interests.

You can be DRUG FREE/HATE FREE/LUST FREE. Just keep your label in the appropriate context.

This is just my opinion-- Not meant for controversy.

[chadfitzy]

someones gota deleate this. it keeps comin back like a damn zombie, dose anyone really enjoy arguing over the same thing with the same answers anymore?

[SgtD]

someones gota deleate this. it keeps comin back like a damn zombie, dose anyone really enjoy arguing over the same thing with the same answers anymore?

i disagree, it should be made a sticky!

[straightXed]

someones gota deleate this. it keeps comin back like a damn zombie, dose anyone really enjoy arguing over the same thing with the same answers anymore?


if it was deleted it would just come back.

[Just-a-fool]

i disagree, it should be made a sticky!

No use in making it a sticky since its the only topic there is in the religion part i guess :s
Is there any other possible way to talk about religion related to sXe?
Though i would like to find out if there are muslim straightedgers...
just out of curiosity :D

[xsecx]

No use in making it a sticky since its the only topic there is in the religion part i guess :s
Is there any other possible way to talk about religion related to sXe?
Though i would like to find out if there are muslim straightedgers...
just out of curiosity :D

there are, they're just older than what's being displayed by default.

and yes, there are muslim straight edge kids.

[Just-a-fool]

Hmm i should change my interface a bit then, so it will show older topics too.

Anyway, i'm not an active catholic. Not many Belgian youth is.
But if anyone asks me what my religion is i still say i'm christian.
Why's that? Because i dont know that much of other religions yet :D
Maybe i should read up about others somewhere else.

Ohw yeh my opionion about being edge and Christian?
I find it quite possible since they both follow the same basics.

[xsecx]

Hmm i should change my interface a bit then, so it will show older topics too.

Anyway, i'm not an active catholic. Not many Belgian youth is.
But if anyone asks me what my religion is i still say i'm christian.
Why's that? Because i dont know that much of other religions yet :D
Maybe i should read up about others somewhere else.

Ohw yeh my opionion about being edge and Christian?
I find it quite possible since they both follow the same basics.

I would suggest going through and reading the thread, the conversation is about scriptural issues rather than a general question.

[xmountbrockenx]

I hate to but in here, but I think that a point has been missed. Comparing sxe with Christianity, or any religion, is like apples and oranges. First, sxe does not suggest that drinking is wrong in so much as it is a 'sin.' There are no 'sins' in sxe, only the committment to abstaining from drinking since it does not give one the 'edge.' So, Christ's drinking was not a committment to maintaining an 'edge,' that ability to be ahead of a culture seduced by drugs and alcohol, but one that identified him with current Jewish culture. Edge is more for those specifically in the punk/hardcore scene. If you are not in it, then there is no reason to have an 'edge,' since drinking dulls the senses-something that is more necessary in a lifestyle in the fast lane than in the slow.

You may find that my interpretation of sxe is not the same as your's, but the logic, assuming my interpretation is correct or acceptable is there.

[Segadoway]

I hate to but in here, but I think that a point has been missed. Comparing sxe with Christianity, or any religion, is like apples and oranges. First, sxe does not suggest that drinking is wrong in so much as it is a 'sin.' There are no 'sins' in sxe, only the committment to abstaining from drinking since it does not give one the 'edge.' So, Christ's drinking was not a committment to maintaining an 'edge,' that ability to be ahead of a culture seduced by drugs and alcohol, but one that identified him with current Jewish culture. Edge is more for those specifically in the punk/hardcore scene. If you are not in it, then there is no reason to have an 'edge,' since drinking dulls the senses-something that is more necessary in a lifestyle in the fast lane than in the slow.

You may find that my interpretation of sxe is not the same as your's, but the logic, assuming my interpretation is correct or acceptable is there.

what is everyones obsession with apples and oranges on this forum?!

[xmountbrockenx]

what is everyones obsession with apples and oranges on this forum?!

Hey, their good for you. And they make a point through a model one can understand. However, I could have said that the two, Christianity (or any religion) and sxe, are not the same sorts of things. The former is a religion, the latter a lifestyle associated with the hardcore/punk scene. Is that better? But you should still eat your apples and oranges. For I hear they prolong life and make one feel better.

[xsecx]

I hate to but in here, but I think that a point has been missed. Comparing sxe with Christianity, or any religion, is like apples and oranges. First, sxe does not suggest that drinking is wrong in so much as it is a 'sin.' There are no 'sins' in sxe, only the committment to abstaining from drinking since it does not give one the 'edge.' So, Christ's drinking was not a committment to maintaining an 'edge,' that ability to be ahead of a culture seduced by drugs and alcohol, but one that identified him with current Jewish culture. Edge is more for those specifically in the punk/hardcore scene. If you are not in it, then there is no reason to have an 'edge,' since drinking dulls the senses-something that is more necessary in a lifestyle in the fast lane than in the slow.

You may find that my interpretation of sxe is not the same as your's, but the logic, assuming my interpretation is correct or acceptable is there.

people aren't comparing them at all, the argument is that the beliefs of one contradict the beliefs of the other. I also don't understand why you think that straight edge doesn't suggest that drinking is wrong, nor do I understand how something could be a "sin" and not wrong.

[XTrueColorsX]

people aren't comparing them at all, the argument is that the beliefs of one contradict the beliefs of the other. I also don't understand why you think that straight edge doesn't suggest that drinking is wrong, nor do I understand how something could be a "sin" and not wrong.

"Sins" and "wrong things" are two different categories. If you blurping out loud at the table this is wrong. But not a sin. If you kill someone this is a sin. xmountbrockenx try to say that for straight edge people drinking is a wrong thing. Not a sin. So when there is a church service on sunday, some dudes are drinking wine and some dudes are not. And there isn't problem for the "two sides". I think this is what he want to say...

Some straight edge guy is vegan and think eating meat is a wrong thing, but when there is a show they sing along with straight edgers who eating meat... And no problem.

[xsecx]

"Sins" and "wrong things" are two different categories. If you blurping out loud at the table this is wrong. But not a sin. If you kill someone this is a sin. xmountbrockenx try to say that for straight edge people drinking is a wrong thing. Not a sin. So when there is a church service on sunday, some dudes are drinking wine and some dudes are not. And there isn't problem for the "two sides". I think this is what he want to say...

Some straight edge guy is vegan and think eating meat is a wrong thing, but when there is a show they sing along with straight edgers who eating meat... And no problem.

I didn't get that impression from what he was saying at all, in fact I saw it as the opposite.

and being christian and vegan for moral reasons is also against christian scripture for the same reason.