Do you have to listen to hardcore?

[XAdamSkaX]

Is listening to Hardcore music the only way to be Straight Edge?
Isn't Straight Edge about respect, love and to use the brain, being healthy?
If that's the case, that you gotta listen to hardcore to be sXe, then i'm not.

One Love.

[xsecx]

Is listening to Hardcore music the only way to be Straight Edge?
Isn't Straight Edge about respect, love and to use the brain, being healthy?
If that's the case, that you gotta listen to hardcore to be sXe, then i'm not.

One Love.

straight edge is a music based subculture and that music is hardcore. Why do you think that straight edge doesn't have to include the music it was born in and the music that's been used to spread that message since the beginning?

[XAdamSkaX]

So you think that sXe is only for punks? That is narrow-minded. Then that's the reason that some folks don't respect it. It's only for some special people. The others that don't like the same stuff is "banned" from the style of living.
sXe started as a rebel against normality that was just doing what everyone else was doing. People that just floating down the river. Now, you have to be in the little inner-cirkel of the movement, and to hear hardcore music, like the others, to have these philosophys of life?
That is what i call narrow-mindedness.

[xsecx]

So you think that sXe is only for punks? That is narrow-minded. Then that's the reason that some folks don't respect it. It's only for some special people. The others that don't like the same stuff is "banned" from the style of living.
sXe started as a rebel against normality that was just doing what everyone else was doing. People that just floating down the river. Now, you have to be in the little inner-cirkel of the movement, and to hear hardcore music, like the others, to have these philosophys of life?
That is what i call narrow-mindedness.

no, I think straight edge is a term that describe people who are drug free and hardcore. That's not being narrow minded, it's what it is. It isn't a catch all term that describes anyone who is drug free. Straight edge started as a rebel against punk, not normality at all. Straight edge is a subculture, it's not just a philopsophy. what are you basing your opinion of what straight edge is on?

[XxXbassist]

no, I think straight edge is a term that describe people who are drug free and hardcore. That's not being narrow minded, it's what it is. It isn't a catch all term that describes anyone who is drug free. Straight edge started as a rebel against punk, not normality at all. Straight edge is a subculture, it's not just a philopsophy. what are you basing your opinion of what straight edge is on?

If thats what it is than you have no authority to say I think in the beginning of the statement..If you are against alcohol use, tabacco, recreational drugs and promiscouis sexual behavior than your edge...Just because sxe was INSPIRED by a hardcore band does not make it a hardcore burden to those who do not prefer it....I love hardcore, I love music in general but just because minor threat a hardcore band and the fact that you obviously someone who prefers hardcore to anything else says so doesn't mean you need to listen to hardcore you should listen to any band that does not subject the veiws of impurity...

[xsecx]

If thats what it is than you have no authority to say I think in the beginning of the statement..If you are against alcohol use, tabacco, recreational drugs and promiscouis sexual behavior than your edge...Just because sxe was INSPIRED by a hardcore band does not make it a hardcore burden to those who do not prefer it....I love hardcore, I love music in general but just because minor threat a hardcore band and the fact that you obviously someone who prefers hardcore to anything else says so doesn't mean you need to listen to hardcore you should listen to any band that does not subject the veiws of impurity...

Being again drugs and alcohol isn't everything that makes up straight edge though. There's more to it. THat's what makes straight edge unique and difference in terms of temperance movements. You remove the music from the equation and you no longer have straight edge. Minor Threat wasn't the only straight edge band. The reason you know what straight edge is today is because of the work of thousands of kids, thousands of bands over the years that kept the music alive and vital. People who think it's just about what you believe have honestly never experienced what straight edge actually is.

[stepinsideissue]

If thats what it is than you have no authority to say I think in the beginning of the statement..If you are against alcohol use, tabacco, recreational drugs and promiscouis sexual behavior than your edge...Just because sxe was INSPIRED by a hardcore band does not make it a hardcore burden to those who do not prefer it....I love hardcore, I love music in general but just because minor threat a hardcore band and the fact that you obviously someone who prefers hardcore to anything else says so doesn't mean you need to listen to hardcore you should listen to any band that does not subject the veiws of impurity...


Except that it's not just Dusty saying this it's thousands upon thousands of people of many ages across the world.

[XAdamSkaX]

But how do you know that? How can you define Straight Edge?
Do you think that those cool folks from Minor Threat that actually started it, would say the same? I really don't think so. But if you can prove it, i must confess, i'm not edge.
But i have bin going around for a long time, and thinked. Thinked about what i was, because i didn't/don't drink, i didn't/don't smoke, i was/are against one night stands and i didn't/does do drugs. Then i find this movement, that have the same opinions. "Cool!", i think. But now i realize that the movement is for a special group of people? People that listens to a special kind of music, all the others can't really join?! That's not cool.

[stepinsideissue]

But how do you know that? How can you define Straight Edge?
Do you think that those cool folks from Minor Threat that actually started it, would say the same? I really don't think so. But if you can prove it, i must confess, i'm not edge.
But i have bin going around for a long time, and thinked. Thinked about what i was, because i didn't/don't drink, i didn't/don't smoke, i was/are against one night stands and i didn't/does do drugs. Then i find this movement, that have the same opinions. "Cool!", i think. But now i realize that the movement is for a special group of people? People that listens to a special kind of music, all the others can't really join?! That's not cool.


Those folks from Minor Threat never intended for straight edge to become what it is today, nore are they straight edge by todays standards. As Dusty has pointed out several times it is a collective effort of millions of people over 2 decades. This isn't a after school club you join. It's a way of life. It's more than being drug free.

[xsecx]

But how do you know that? How can you define Straight Edge?
Do you think that those cool folks from Minor Threat that actually started it, would say the same? I really don't think so. But if you can prove it, i must confess, i'm not edge.
But i have bin going around for a long time, and thinked. Thinked about what i was, because i didn't/don't drink, i didn't/don't smoke, i was/are against one night stands and i didn't/does do drugs. Then i find this movement, that have the same opinions. "Cool!", i think. But now i realize that the movement is for a special group of people? People that listens to a special kind of music, all the others can't really join?! That's not cool.

Because I've been a part of straight edge for over 15 years now. I literally grew up in the scene and it's been apart of my life since before I was a teenager. I don't understand why people think it went from Minor Threat 24 years ago directly to you knowing about it today with nothing in between. It's been years and years of hard work and dedication to make it so you have something to find out about. I don't know why you think it's some special group that people can't join. It's a term that means something, but it's also something that no one is telling you you can't be. If you don't like hardcore, then why would you want to use a term that describes people that do? For instance, I'm bald. I shave my head. Given your way of thinking I should be able to call myself a skinhead, since I'm bald. But of course that wouldnt' make sense, because being a skin is about more than just being bald. The same is true with straight edge. It's not just about a set of beliefs. There is more to it.

[straightXed]

But how do you know that? How can you define Straight Edge?
Do you think that those cool folks from Minor Threat that actually started it, would say the same? I really don't think so. But if you can prove it, i must confess, i'm not edge.
But i have bin going around for a long time, and thinked. Thinked about what i was, because i didn't/don't drink, i didn't/don't smoke, i was/are against one night stands and i didn't/does do drugs. Then i find this movement, that have the same opinions. "Cool!", i think. But now i realize that the movement is for a special group of people? People that listens to a special kind of music, all the others can't really join?! That's not cool.

Well minor threat didn't really start it they wrote a song that dealt with the issues of drugs (and said nothing about sex) called straightedge, a fair amount of people in the scene adopted that name to define their collective agreement in seeing the scene being less about nihilistic attitudes towards themselves as thats just retarded really, so hardcore as a whole was born as a reaction to the punk ethos and straightedge came along with that, people used the term and established the groundwork for straightedge, its history went on to become more dynamic later on long after minor threat were disbanded. The thing is that minor threats personal views on straightedge is that it was never meant for anyone to take in that way, they wrote a song about what they believed but didn't want anything to do with the movement that the hardcore scene collectively produced, as such all minor threat are really responsible for is coming up with a name for a song. The people in the scene could just as easily of lifted a uniform choice title to describe their collective stance against drugs recreational use within the scene. If that had been the case you'd never have the urge to call yourself straightedge now, it would just be a song title, its the hardwork that hardcore kids put in that made that name even viable today and when you understand all that it becomes pretty eveident just how huge a part hardcore plays in the labels presence today. To be perfectly honest minor threat have very little to do with what straightedge become, the people you need to ask is all the bands and all the hardcore kids that kept straightedge going and kept it meaning something real for the last 23 years since minor threat disbanded.

Why is it not cool to want to preserve the essence of straightedge and keep it and its relationship with hardcore vital. I think that is really cool and gives it a real meaning and something that can't easily be thrown around or misconstrued. You have to understand the amount of passion that has gone into this, its really meant something in hardcore, it doesn't stop you from being drug free. For about 25 years hardcore kids have kept this meaning something, kept it alive by playing shows in peoples basements and frontrooms or sketchy venues. They have toured the world, sleeping in vans or on kind peoples floors inspiring new groups of people to get involved and start playing show in their own scene. This has grown and become something worldwide from its roots in america because it has travelled through the vehicle of hardcore, the songs have meant so much and inspired so many, for years its been a self supporting scene with no need for outside interest, this is something that stayed alive through a lot of blood,sweat and hard work - to negate that now is something of an insult, the fact is its only because of hardcore that anyone has even heard of it but they simply adopt the term without really looking at what it means, its not just being drug free, its so much more and it is really fucking cool when you are part of that. And its not that others can't join, its not closed doors but hardcore is an inherent part, if others aren't going to be part of that then really that would just dilute what it means. So you can join in but you can't ignore the hardcore part because that is essential.

[xKennehx]

Listening to hardcore is the difference between Straight Edge and just not doing drugs.

[xJon the conx]

i think its invalid to say that you have to listen to hardcore to be straight edge and a touch elitest. while it is undenyable that straight edge started in and was maintained by the hardcore scene there is no reason why it should be limited to that particular subgenre.

1.in this day and age you have a large group of people who grew up in hardcore who are now involved in other musical subgenres. they are still straight edge and why shouldnt they preach their beliefs to their new fan base.

2. way back in the day there was alot of coming and going between members of different musical scenes, if public enemy decided that they wanted to be straight edge back when they were wearing minor threat shirts around does anyone honestly think somone would have told them that it was "only for hardcore" just because a belief system was coined and largely maintained by hardcore shouldnt give hardcore sole rights to the term. now naturally people are gonna be pissed by newjack nerds and posers who say theyre straight edge and have no knowledge of its roots (anybody remember that raver guy on the real world back when, jesus.) but that shouldnt necessarily mean to say that you MUST be this or that. why should it?

i understand the idea of straight edge "being" what it is but noone necessarily said in the beginning that straight edge was only going to be for hardcore. that is something that certain people in hardcore are now trying to institute so that they look cooler now that hardcore music has finally managed to push the envelope far enough that straight edge has gained some form of popularity (mostly through its influence into other cultural sub genres) just because the term usually refers to people who listen to hardcore there has never until recently been this push to keep someone else from using the title.

i for one get hyped when someone from the "outside" becomes interested in my beliefs, now if theyre learning them from me and im straight edge from hardcore, why would i bother to call their belief system something different just because they play in a psychobilly band?
thats the same as a jew telling someone they couldnt be jewish because they were'nt of hebrew decent, even though they learned and agreed with judaisms (ridiculous) beliefs

[xsecx]

i think its invalid to say that you have to listen to hardcore to be straight edge and a touch elitest. while it is undenyable that straight edge started in and was maintained by the hardcore scene there is no reason why it should be limited to that particular subgenre.

1.in this day and age you have a large group of people who grew up in hardcore who are now involved in other musical subgenres. they are still straight edge and why shouldnt they preach their beliefs to their new fan base.

2. way back in the day there was alot of coming and going between members of different musical scenes, if public enemy decided that they wanted to be straight edge back when they were wearing minor threat shirts around does anyone honestly think somone would have told them that it was "only for hardcore" just because a belief system was coined and largely maintained by hardcore shouldnt give hardcore sole rights to the term. now naturally people are gonna be pissed by newjack nerds and posers who say theyre straight edge and have no knowledge of its roots (anybody remember that raver guy on the real world back when, jesus.) but that shouldnt necessarily mean to say that you MUST be this or that. why should it?

i understand the idea of straight edge "being" what it is but noone necessarily said in the beginning that straight edge was only going to be for hardcore. that is something that certain people in hardcore are now trying to institute so that they look cooler now that hardcore music has finally managed to push the envelope far enough that straight edge has gained some form of popularity (mostly through its influence into other cultural sub genres) just because the term usually refers to people who listen to hardcore there has never until recently been this push to keep someone else from using the title.

i for one get hyped when someone from the "outside" becomes interested in my beliefs, now if theyre learning them from me and im straight edge from hardcore, why would i bother to call their belief system something different just because they play in a psychobilly band?
thats the same as a jew telling someone they couldnt be jewish because they were'nt of hebrew decent, even though they learned and agreed with judaisms (ridiculous) beliefs


it hasn't been until recently that kids with no connection to what is actually happening started calling themselves straight edge. The point being that the music is a major part of what makes straight edge, straight edge. If you take the hardcore out of it, you just have the beliefs and not the actual subculture.

[xbustedx]

really its just as simple as if you dont listen to Hardcore and you are Drug Free...you are merely Drug Free and not Straight Edge. Because...what else makes straight edge, straight edge other than Hardcore and being Drug Free. Because if someone was Drug Free but didnt listen to Hardcore. What would be the point of them wanting to use the term? other than just trying to be cool or wanting to fit in.

[goodcleanbritt]

really its just as simple as if you dont listen to Hardcore and you are Drug Free...you are merely Drug Free and not Straight Edge. Because...what else makes straight edge, straight edge other than Hardcore and being Drug Free. Because if someone was Drug Free but didnt listen to Hardcore. What would be the point of them wanting to use the term? other than just trying to be cool or wanting to fit in.

exactly. you can be drug free and not straight edge. straight edge was born out of hardcore and should remain exclusively attached to hardcore. The homepage to this site is true. If you haven't felt the intensity of singing along to a straight edge anthem, or the unpredictability of being at a hardcore show, I wouldn't call yourself edge. This is a lifestyle. Hardcore kids are living by the words of their favourite hardcore bands, they are living a hardcore lifestyle. They are keeping alive what was born in the 80s. And straight edge may or may not be a part of this hardcore lifestyle, depending on their opinions about drugs and alcohol.

[xJon the conx]

meh, i agree more or less with what xsecx is saying about what i'd consider the validity of your "edge" i just think that attempting to draw a black and white line across the boundaries of how hardcore you have to be to be straight edge is a bit of a moot point. if straight edge is supposedly a movement and not a social club then what exactly is the point of a movement that never leaves the subculture that gave it birth? what good is a sxe band that sits onstage and gives speeches to a sxe crowd really? in indy there was a time when alot of hardcore shows would have other genre bands on the bill running the gamut from death metal to hip hop. now if you've got a sxe band playing with these bands, calling themselves straight edge and attempting to teach the lifestyles of a movement to the ill informed (which i support) then how can you then blame the listening audience with associating themselves with what they have now been taught is "straight edge" it would be my feeling that they were legitimate, this scenario does grant obviously that they have some remote tie to the hardcore scene, however i dont see how someone who was there then starting a straight edge hip hop band is any less straight edge.

i realize this seems at first glance like an awfully specific scenario to argue my point but if you think about i think you'll see that this is in most cases what has happened to spread the straight edge mentality, sxe still only enjoys any actual form of notoriety within the underground music subgenres with very few exceptions. most of those exceptions could be considered questionably invalid, but then again how many shitty sxe chug bands have you seen over the years that sold out a couple years later anyhow?

[xsecx]

meh, i agree more or less with what xsecx is saying about what i'd consider the validity of your "edge" i just think that attempting to draw a black and white line across the boundaries of how hardcore you have to be to be straight edge is a bit of a moot point. if straight edge is supposedly a movement and not a social club then what exactly is the point of a movement that never leaves the subculture that gave it birth? what good is a sxe band that sits onstage and gives speeches to a sxe crowd really? in indy there was a time when alot of hardcore shows would have other genre bands on the bill running the gamut from death metal to hip hop. now if you've got a sxe band playing with these bands, calling themselves straight edge and attempting to teach the lifestyles of a movement to the ill informed (which i support) then how can you then blame the listening audience with associating themselves with what they have now been taught is "straight edge" it would be my feeling that they were legitimate, this scenario does grant obviously that they have some remote tie to the hardcore scene, however i dont see how someone who was there then starting a straight edge hip hop band is any less straight edge.

i realize this seems at first glance like an awfully specific scenario to argue my point but if you think about i think you'll see that this is in most cases what has happened to spread the straight edge mentality, sxe still only enjoys any actual form of notoriety within the underground music subgenres with very few exceptions. most of those exceptions could be considered questionably invalid, but then again how many shitty sxe chug bands have you seen over the years that sold out a couple years later anyhow?

my counterpoint would be that if someone was creating a hip hop band that it wouldn't be straight edge but something unique and different on it's own where the common point would be a stance against drugs and alcohol. Right now kids are clinging on to a term that doesn't describe them because it sounds cool rather than making up something new that does. Now if something new was to be created that would be amazingly cool and would give kids who are into other forms of music something to hold on to, but that still doesn't change what straight edge itself is.

[xvunderx]

meh, i agree more or less with what xsecx is saying about what i'd consider the validity of your "edge" i just think that attempting to draw a black and white line across the boundaries of how hardcore you have to be to be straight edge is a bit of a moot point. if straight edge is supposedly a movement and not a social club then what exactly is the point of a movement that never leaves the subculture that gave it birth? what good is a sxe band that sits onstage and gives speeches to a sxe crowd really? in indy there was a time when alot of hardcore shows would have other genre bands on the bill running the gamut from death metal to hip hop. now if you've got a sxe band playing with these bands, calling themselves straight edge and attempting to teach the lifestyles of a movement to the ill informed (which i support) then how can you then blame the listening audience with associating themselves with what they have now been taught is "straight edge" it would be my feeling that they were legitimate, this scenario does grant obviously that they have some remote tie to the hardcore scene, however i dont see how someone who was there then starting a straight edge hip hop band is any less straight edge.

i realize this seems at first glance like an awfully specific scenario to argue my point but if you think about i think you'll see that this is in most cases what has happened to spread the straight edge mentality, sxe still only enjoys any actual form of notoriety within the underground music subgenres with very few exceptions. most of those exceptions could be considered questionably invalid, but then again how many shitty sxe chug bands have you seen over the years that sold out a couple years later anyhow?

In your indy show scenario, a person would know they aren't edge, the same way a person would know they aren't metal or what ever else. Also Drug free isn't exclusive to sXe, I think promoting a drug free lifestyle is a great thing, and that doesn't require the label sXe.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to separate the 2. An edge band can sit up there and sing their message, the message isn't "be sXe" it's "live drug free" you don't need edge to make that your life, and edge can have an impact on the world without being dissolved by it.

[xJon the conx]

In your indy show scenario, a person would know they aren't edge, the same way a person would know they aren't metal or what ever else. Also Drug free isn't exclusive to sXe, I think promoting a drug free lifestyle is a great thing, and that doesn't require the label sXe.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to separate the 2. An edge band can sit up there and sing their message, the message isn't "be sXe" it's "live drug free" you don't need edge to make that your life, and edge can have an impact on the world without being dissolved by it.


see my counterpoint to that however would be that though i've been to hundreds of shows around the country and seen multitudes of sxe bands i cant recollect ever seeing one say "you are drug free, not straight edge" 75% of bands will simply say straight edge and of the remainder who do say "drug free" the metal head will go "who was that" and somone will say "oh thats xXXXx - this straight edge band from georgia" now how is said metal head gonna know the difference? and then if the bands who promote sxe and supposedly ARE the straight edge scene are leading someone to believe that they are or could be straight edge by a lifestyle change, then isnt that essentially justified by your argument that the bands, are the scene, are the straight edge?

it could always be argued against by the blueblood hardcore purist, but in reality it would seem to me that the scenarios i've sited are an accurate example of whats happening in the "movement" today. the fact that straight edge has branched out is factually irrefuteable (or the fact that these people say that they are) i mean when youre arguing something as trivial as the name of movements of exactly likeness then youre really just splitting hairs. and hair splitting will eventually be forgotten as a movement gains momentum among the "masses". i would think of it as reminescent of the rift between orthodox and unorthodox religious sects (except not nearly as important to anyone).

i think the basic argument that we're attempting to make is whether hardcore is simply the medium of the message, or the message itself. and i see no proof in early hardcore history to justify the belief that it could never branch out. and even if i did see it, i would then form a martin luther type reform party to take it out to the masses anyway.

i dont want it to look like im taking the hippy stance on this either because to be perfectly honest it boils my blood a little when some raver or hip hop dude starts saying he's straight edge. on a case to case basis i may even play the hypocrite and deny him. but i just cant in good faith say that i believe im a part of a subculture that is so infinently different from say death metal that a metal head couldnt easily cross the barrier and be straight edge. i know that i feel like i belong at death metal shows when i want to go there, because i pose not. and if someone tried to give me some nonsense about how i am or am not "metal" i'd think he was a fucking dork.

[xJon the conx]

as a matter of fact i'll one up that closing statement to say that you can "be" metal or not metal aloter easier than straight edge because theres no laid out belief system involved.

so whereas if i were at a metal show and someone said "youre not metal" i might say "true, but youre a fucking dork" if i were at a hardcore show with one of my metal head friends and some newjack kid in a throwdown hoodie said "he's not straight edge" i would say "untrue, AND youre a fucking dork"

[xsecx]

see my counterpoint to that however would be that though i've been to hundreds of shows around the country and seen multitudes of sxe bands i cant recollect ever seeing one say "you are drug free, not straight edge" 75% of bands will simply say straight edge and of the remainder who do say "drug free" the metal head will go "who was that" and somone will say "oh thats xXXXx - this straight edge band from georgia" now how is said metal head gonna know the difference? and then if the bands who promote sxe and supposedly ARE the straight edge scene are leading someone to believe that they are or could be straight edge by a lifestyle change, then isnt that essentially justified by your argument that the bands, are the scene, are the straight edge?

it could always be argued against by the blueblood hardcore purist, but in reality it would seem to me that the scenarios i've sited are an accurate example of whats happening in the "movement" today. the fact that straight edge has branched out is factually irrefuteable (or the fact that these people say that they are) i mean when youre arguing something as trivial as the name of movements of exactly likeness then youre really just splitting hairs. and hair splitting will eventually be forgotten as a movement gains momentum among the "masses". i would think of it as reminescent of the rift between orthodox and unorthodox religious sects (except not nearly as important to anyone).

i think the basic argument that we're attempting to make is whether hardcore is simply the medium of the message, or the message itself. and i see no proof in early hardcore history to justify the belief that it could never branch out. and even if i did see it, i would then form a martin luther type reform party to take it out to the masses anyway.

i dont want it to look like im taking the hippy stance on this either because to be perfectly honest it boils my blood a little when some raver or hip hop dude starts saying he's straight edge. on a case to case basis i may even play the hypocrite and deny him. but i just cant in good faith say that i believe im a part of a subculture that is so infinently different from say death metal that a metal head couldnt easily cross the barrier and be straight edge. i know that i feel like i belong at death metal shows when i want to go there, because i pose not. and if someone tried to give me some nonsense about how i am or am not "metal" i'd think he was a fucking dork.

what's branched out though? Where are there examples of straight edge in scenes that aren't hardcore and aren't what people are considering hardcore now? Where is the critical mass of people who are involved?

[xJon the conx]

you tell me, you guys are the ones who are worried about this mass influx of outsiders using the term "straight edge" is this a problem thats even worth discussing?

however if you have kids who are accessing this board in an effort to learn about and become part of the straight edge movement and youre sending them away because they havent heard enough hardcore bands, then there must be a leak somewhere.

i consider being "drug free" as a passive (and somewhat cowardly) version of straight edge.

and then being straight edge as the act of taking a stance against and the promotion of a drug free lifestyle. (as was popularized by the hardcore straight edge scene)

this mentality has led me to believe that while i do know a few people who arent into hardcore who are straight edge, i also know alot of kids in hardcore who arent actually straight edge, but just nerds who are too scared to drink or do drugs in the first place so they latch onto a term that in my opinion dosent really apply to them.

[xsecx]

you tell me, you guys are the ones who are worried about this mass influx of outsiders using the term "straight edge" is this a problem thats even worth discussing?

however if you have kids who are accessing this board in an effort to learn about and become part of the straight edge movement and youre sending them away because they havent heard enough hardcore bands, then there must be a leak somewhere.


you just made the statement "the fact that straight edge has branched out is factually irrefuteable " I'm saying it is refuteable and not true. Random kids with no involvement calling themselves straight edge because they read about part of it on a website isn't the same as branching out. If straight edge is actually going to mean something then yeah it is worth discussing. What you see as sending away I see as encouraging them to look into what straight edge actually is, not what you read about on a website.



i consider being "drug free" as a passive (and somewhat cowardly) version of straight edge.

and then being straight edge as the act of taking a stance against and the promotion of a drug free lifestyle. (as was popularized by the hardcore straight edge scene)

this mentality has led me to believe that while i do know a few people who arent into hardcore who are straight edge, i also know alot of kids in hardcore who arent actually straight edge, but just nerds who are too scared to drink or do drugs in the first place so they latch onto a term that in my opinion dosent really apply to them.

Except that being drug free predates straight edge and there are a hell of a lot more drug free people than straight edge, since drug free is a umbrella term that catches everyone who lives a drug free lifestyle. How are people you know that are straight edge and aren't into hardcore? I'm failing to understand how the terms can seperated since when you do you don't have what makes straight edge, straight edge.

[xJon the conx]

you just made the statement "the fact that straight edge has branched out is factually irrefuteable " I'm saying it is refuteable and not true. Random kids with no involvement calling themselves straight edge because they read about part of it on a website isn't the same as branching out. If straight edge is actually going to mean something then yeah it is worth discussing. What you see as sending away I see as encouraging them to look into what straight edge actually is, not what you read about on a website.



Except that being drug free predates straight edge and there are a hell of a lot more drug free people than straight edge, since drug free is a umbrella term that catches everyone who lives a drug free lifestyle. How are people you know that are straight edge and aren't into hardcore? I'm failing to understand how the terms can seperated since when you do you don't have what makes straight edge, straight edge.


since im new here i havent mastered the double quote response yet, so i'll just address those as they came.

as per your first paragraph i would maintain that it is an irrefutable fact that the movement has branched. i'll site some examples why so that you can refute them specifically if youre inclined.
1. if kids are reading about straight edge on the internet as you say and coming to your site, then that in my opinion would be a clear cut example of straight edge "branching out" via what is probably the most widely used form of communication in the world today (especially for the price) if theyre reading about straight edge then im assuming the information is typically coming from straight edge (or in worst case scenearios heresay from someone who got its from straight edge the community)

2. i dont like hip hop but there are definently sxe hip hop bands, since i try my damndest to ignore the genre the only one i can name offhand would be xreign of terrorx

3. im not much more a fan of the "mtv metal" bands but you obviously have bands like killswitch engage, bleeding through, demiricious, bury your dead, himsa and even new found glory flaunting "straight edge". now im friends with members of all of these bands and love or hate what theyre doing now musically they ALL are legitimately from the hardcore scene originally and are irrefutably straight edge. now these bands are on mtv and touring on ozzfest and preaching about straight edge and branching out. irrefutably.

as per your second paragraph response to my comments about who i do and do not consider "straight edge" my comments were more of an afterthought than a decleration pertaining to the argument of "does music make the difference?" it is obvious that more people worldwide are going to be technically drug free than are going to be straight edge, my comments were referring more to people from the scene who claim to be drug free because they dont want to be associated with straight edge which i think is pretty weak as a rule. i do think however that your comment about who i know that is straight edge who is not into hardcore is relevant to the argument because it gives an opportunity for an example of a specific scenario. i have a friend who sings for a psychobilly band which is pretty damn sweet, now like i mentioned earlier here in indy alot of our underground musical genres play music together (probably born from the necessity of having a smaller scene) anyhow this guy gets into the belief system and lives your typical drug free lifestyle, ends up hanging out with us at the tattoo shop a bit and then decides that he's interested in taking the stand of actually being "straight edge" which i see nothing wrong with. now it is true that we've brought him to a straight edge hardcore show or two because he was naturally interested in learning where it came from and what a sxe show is like, but you cant change the fact that his personal listening preferance ranges more to the cramps and not to the repetative chugs and drones of modern hardcore.

i dont care if he never comes to another "hardcore" show in his life, im glad he's straight edge and i hope he takes it with his band to a new audience and spreads the good word. i honestly like people like that better because theyre more making a choice to believe in and participate in a movement rather than kids in a scene that is so saturated that you get alot of 17 year old kids wearing shirts that say "i am still edge"

[xJon the conx]

i dont want to make it seem like im totally shitting on the idea of straight edge coming from hardcore and that to be valid you should have some recognition of your roots, just like with any belief system.

i honestly just think its just as pointless and stupid to argue "who is straight edge" (barring the obvious rules thereof) as it is when people argue "what is hardcore" there are so many people involved and so much time passed that it no longer belongs to anyone school of thought.

[xsecx]

i dont want to make it seem like im totally shitting on the idea of straight edge coming from hardcore and that to be valid you should have some recognition of your roots, just like with any belief system.

i honestly just think its just as pointless and stupid to argue "who is straight edge" (barring the obvious rules thereof) as it is when people argue "what is hardcore" there are so many people involved and so much time passed that it no longer belongs to anyone school of thought.

but if you don't argue it then the term becomes a meaningless catch all term for anyone that is drug free.

[xsecx]

since im new here i havent mastered the double quote response yet, so i'll just address those as they came.

as per your first paragraph i would maintain that it is an irrefutable fact that the movement has branched. i'll site some examples why so that you can refute them specifically if youre inclined.
1. if kids are reading about straight edge on the internet as you say and coming to your site, then that in my opinion would be a clear cut example of straight edge "branching out" via what is probably the most widely used form of communication in the world today (especially for the price) if theyre reading about straight edge then im assuming the information is typically coming from straight edge (or in worst case scenearios heresay from someone who got its from straight edge the community)


But this isn't a reflection of it branching out, it's a reflection of people from the outside hearing about it and attaching the label but not the lifestyle to themselves.



2. i dont like hip hop but there are definently sxe hip hop bands, since i try my damndest to ignore the genre the only one i can name offhand would be xreign of terrorx


and none of the ones I'm aware of are actual hip hop bands and are more hardcore kids doing hiphop, there is a difference. It isn't coming organically through hiphop, it's just kids who like both. It's like using fort knox as an example.



3. im not much more a fan of the "mtv metal" bands but you obviously have bands like killswitch engage, bleeding through, demiricious, bury your dead, himsa and even new found glory flaunting "straight edge". now im friends with members of all of these bands and love or hate what theyre doing now musically they ALL are legitimately from the hardcore scene originally and are irrefutably straight edge. now these bands are on mtv and touring on ozzfest and preaching about straight edge and branching out. irrefutably.


And none of the bands you listed are edge, but have edge members. I also don't see where they are as a band preaching about straight edge?



as per your second paragraph response to my comments about who i do and do not consider "straight edge" my comments were more of an afterthought than a decleration pertaining to the argument of "does music make the difference?" it is obvious that more people worldwide are going to be technically drug free than are going to be straight edge, my comments were referring more to people from the scene who claim to be drug free because they dont want to be associated with straight edge which i think is pretty weak as a rule. i do think however that your comment about who i know that is straight edge who is not into hardcore is relevant to the argument because it gives an opportunity for an example of a specific scenario. i have a friend who sings for a psychobilly band which is pretty damn sweet, now like i mentioned earlier here in indy alot of our underground musical genres play music together (probably born from the necessity of having a smaller scene) anyhow this guy gets into the belief system and lives your typical drug free lifestyle, ends up hanging out with us at the tattoo shop a bit and then decides that he's interested in taking the stand of actually being "straight edge" which i see nothing wrong with. now it is true that we've brought him to a straight edge hardcore show or two because he was naturally interested in learning where it came from and what a sxe show is like, but you cant change the fact that his personal listening preferance ranges more to the cramps and not to the repetative chugs and drones of modern hardcore.

i dont care if he never comes to another "hardcore" show in his life, im glad he's straight edge and i hope he takes it with his band to a new audience and spreads the good word. i honestly like people like that better because theyre more making a choice to believe in and participate in a movement rather than kids in a scene that is so saturated that you get alot of 17 year old kids wearing shirts that say "i am still edge"

but how is he straight edge though? How does the label/lifestyle/movement accruately reflect what he's about? To me, it only speaks to his beliefs but not his lifestyle, which is the real difference between straight edge and drug free.

[xJon the conx]

1. But this isn't a reflection of it branching out, it's a reflection of people from the outside hearing about it and attaching the label but not the lifestyle to themselves.



2. and none of the ones I'm aware of are actual hip hop bands and are more hardcore kids doing hiphop, there is a difference. It isn't coming organically through hiphop, it's just kids who like both. It's like using fort knox as an example.



3. And none of the bands you listed are edge, but have edge members. I also don't see where they are as a band preaching about straight edge?



4. but how is he straight edge though? How does the label/lifestyle/movement accruately reflect what he's about? To me, it only speaks to his beliefs but not his lifestyle, which is the real difference between straight edge and drug free.


we are making for some looong posts my friend. wouldnt suprise me if we were the only ones reading them at this point.

again i havent explored the quoting system on this board so i numbered your paragraphs.

1. i disagree, you are arguing about the validity of the new people themselves which would be what we'd consider newjacks to the scene/movement. i am arguing that the reason they turned up and heard or read anything in the first place was because people who are straight edge "branched out" by putting that information out there to be accessed. some might be doing it simply to record the history of what could be considered "our people" but it would be naive i think to assume that none of them we're doing it as a form of recruitment.

2. i do agree with this statement but i dont think its so much different than my own, you have people from the hardcore scene who have thrust themselves into different genres of music. now granted these bands to play to a large number of hardcore kids but they also play to hip hop audiences, hence spreading the word and branching out to those involved in different sub cultures

3. bleeding through is a straight edge band however in response to the other bands you mentioned it is true that they only have straight edge members, however alot of those straight edge members are they singers, writers, core of the band. these individuals maintain most of the creative influence and authority of those bands and anytime i've ever seen any of them they do various shout outs "this is for the straight edge kids" ect. ect. now even though technically "the band" isnt doing an outreach persay, the main element of these bands are. when you get a band like bleeding through or killswitch engage talking about straight edge and being straight edge to their newfound fans at ozzfest or a tour with slayer or what have you, then i consider that "branching out"

4. this paragraph seems to me to more or less be a rehashing of our argument of "what is straight edge" by your definition he would not be, by mine he is. my point is that i dont agree with your imposed regulations on who can or cannot be straight edge. i dont think that the people of your school of thought have the authority to make that call. hence my references to what i see as being reminescent of an orthodox/unorthodox system. my school of thinking is that straight edge was created and primarily exists within the hardcore scene, if people who are members of this scene want to spread this belief system then obviously they should, however you would then ask that they tell the people they spread it to that they not refer to themselves as straight edge just because they dont really care for hardcore music. i think that is completely irrelevant and i see no more reason to attatch that rule to straight edge than i do veganism or lack of sexual promiscuity. whats more i dont think that the "scene" as a whole feels the same way you do.

[stepinsideissue]

Nope. Not the only ones reading these posts.

[xsecx]

we are making for some looong posts my friend. wouldnt suprise me if we were the only ones reading them at this point.

again i havent explored the quoting system on this board so i numbered your paragraphs.

1. i disagree, you are arguing about the validity of the new people themselves which would be what we'd consider newjacks to the scene/movement. i am arguing that the reason they turned up and heard or read anything in the first place was because people who are straight edge "branched out" by putting that information out there to be accessed. some might be doing it simply to record the history of what could be considered "our people" but it would be naive i think to assume that none of them we're doing it as a form of recruitment.

2. i do agree with this statement but i dont think its so much different than my own, you have people from the hardcore scene who have thrust themselves into different genres of music. now granted these bands to play to a large number of hardcore kids but they also play to hip hop audiences, hence spreading the word and branching out to those involved in different sub cultures

3. bleeding through is a straight edge band however in response to the other bands you mentioned it is true that they only have straight edge members, however alot of those straight edge members are they singers, writers, core of the band. these individuals maintain most of the creative influence and authority of those bands and anytime i've ever seen any of them they do various shout outs "this is for the straight edge kids" ect. ect. now even though technically "the band" isnt doing an outreach persay, the main element of these bands are. when you get a band like bleeding through or killswitch engage talking about straight edge and being straight edge to their newfound fans at ozzfest or a tour with slayer or what have you, then i consider that "branching out"

4. this paragraph seems to me to more or less be a rehashing of our argument of "what is straight edge" by your definition he would not be, by mine he is. my point is that i dont agree with your imposed regulations on who can or cannot be straight edge. i dont think that the people of your school of thought have the authority to make that call. hence my references to what i see as being reminescent of an orthodox/unorthodox system. my school of thinking is that straight edge was created and primarily exists within the hardcore scene, if people who are members of this scene want to spread this belief system then obviously they should, however you would then ask that they tell the people they spread it to that they not refer to themselves as straight edge just because they dont really care for hardcore music. i think that is completely irrelevant and i see no more reason to attatch that rule to straight edge than i do veganism or lack of sexual promiscuity. whats more i dont think that the "scene" as a whole feels the same way you do.

I'll get to this when I have more time today. hopefully this afternoon.

[xsecx]

.
1. i disagree, you are arguing about the validity of the new people themselves which would be what we'd consider newjacks to the scene/movement. i am arguing that the reason they turned up and heard or read anything in the first place was because people who are straight edge "branched out" by putting that information out there to be accessed. some might be doing it simply to record the history of what could be considered "our people" but it would be naive i think to assume that none of them we're doing it as a form of recruitment.


Or the media ran a story or one misinformed kid called another misinformed kid straight edge. THe main point being if the misinformed kids actually researched and or experienced what straight edge actually was they'd either stop calling themselves edge or actively become involved in what's happening rather that just using a term incorrectly.



2. i do agree with this statement but i dont think its so much different than my own, you have people from the hardcore scene who have thrust themselves into different genres of music. now granted these bands to play to a large number of hardcore kids but they also play to hip hop audiences, hence spreading the word and branching out to those involved in different sub cultures


which still brings it back to the base and not in and of itself expansion. Until there is a scene completely seperate from hardcore where this happens, it's just hardcore kids doing other things. And when that something completely seperate happens it'll be awesome but it won't be straight edge.



3. bleeding through is a straight edge band however in response to the other bands you mentioned it is true that they only have straight edge members, however alot of those straight edge members are they singers, writers, core of the band. these individuals maintain most of the creative influence and authority of those bands and anytime i've ever seen any of them they do various shout outs "this is for the straight edge kids" ect. ect. now even though technically "the band" isnt doing an outreach persay, the main element of these bands are. when you get a band like bleeding through or killswitch engage talking about straight edge and being straight edge to their newfound fans at ozzfest or a tour with slayer or what have you, then i consider that "branching out"


I still think this is a massive stretch and isn't seperate from hardcore.



4. this paragraph seems to me to more or less be a rehashing of our argument of "what is straight edge" by your definition he would not be, by mine he is. my point is that i dont agree with your imposed regulations on who can or cannot be straight edge. i dont think that the people of your school of thought have the authority to make that call. hence my references to what i see as being reminescent of an orthodox/unorthodox system. my school of thinking is that straight edge was created and primarily exists within the hardcore scene, if people who are members of this scene want to spread this belief system then obviously they should, however you would then ask that they tell the people they spread it to that they not refer to themselves as straight edge just because they dont really care for hardcore music. i think that is completely irrelevant and i see no more reason to attatch that rule to straight edge than i do veganism or lack of sexual promiscuity. whats more i dont think that the "scene" as a whole feels the same way you do.

The issue being that the belief system isn't unique and using the term straight edge to describe the belief system only isn't an accurate portrayal of what straight edge actually is. The entire point is that once it is removed from what makes it actually unique, the relationship of the beliefs and the music and everything that goes along with that, you cease to have straight edge. Some rockabilly dude on an island who is drug free and has heard a few tunes isn't straight edge. He isn't contributing to straight edge, He isn't apart of straight edge. He's doing his own thing and walking his own path. Still cool, just not straight edge. And as to your point about the scene as a whole not feeling the same way as I do, if that was the case then you wouldn't have said "straight edge was created and primarily exists within the hardcore scene".

[xJon the conx]

1. Or the media ran a story or one misinformed kid called another misinformed kid straight edge. THe main point being if the misinformed kids actually researched and or experienced what straight edge actually was they'd either stop calling themselves edge or actively become involved in what's happening rather that just using a term incorrectly.



2. which still brings it back to the base and not in and of itself expansion. Until there is a scene completely seperate from hardcore where this happens, it's just hardcore kids doing other things. And when that something completely seperate happens it'll be awesome but it won't be straight edge.



3. I still think this is a massive stretch and isn't seperate from hardcore.



4. The issue being that the belief system isn't unique and using the term straight edge to describe the belief system only isn't an accurate portrayal of what straight edge actually is. The entire point is that once it is removed from what makes it actually unique, the relationship of the beliefs and the music and everything that goes along with that, you cease to have straight edge. Some rockabilly dude on an island who is drug free and has heard a few tunes isn't straight edge. He isn't contributing to straight edge, He isn't apart of straight edge. He's doing his own thing and walking his own path. Still cool, just not straight edge. And as to your point about the scene as a whole not feeling the same way as I do, if that was the case then you wouldn't have said "straight edge was created and primarily exists within the hardcore scene".


im gonna make these responses short because this really is just going in circles, its obvious that we completely disagree with each other, and i think we've both had opportunity to argue our cases for the mass straight edge conciousness.

1. you just added two other ways that they could have learned about straight edge, this does not address or invalidate my comment about straight edge people reaching out. and they would only stop calling themselves straight edge if someone like you told them not to, and not alot of people are doing that.

2. its true that it is for the most part hardcore kids doing other things, but theyre attempting to institute straight edge into other genres, which again is only "not straight edge" in your opinion.

3. how is something a stretch that is actually happening. nothing i said that youre responding to was a theory, these tours and comments were made and i know im not the only one who knows someone who got their definition of straight edge from these bands.

4. this paragraph simply boils down to your belief that music makes straight edge, again, i disagree.

[stepinsideissue]

im gonna make these responses short because this really is just going in circles, its obvious that we completely disagree with each other, and i think we've both had opportunity to argue our cases for the mass straight edge conciousness.

1. you just added two other ways that they could have learned about straight edge, this does not address or invalidate my comment about straight edge people reaching out. and they would only stop calling themselves straight edge if someone like you told them not to, and not alot of people are doing that.

2. its true that it is for the most part hardcore kids doing other things, but theyre attempting to institute straight edge into other genres, which again is only "not straight edge" in your opinion.

3. how is something a stretch that is actually happening. nothing i said that youre responding to was a theory, these tours and comments were made and i know im not the only one who knows someone who got their definition of straight edge from these bands.

4. this paragraph simply boils down to your belief that music makes straight edge, again, i disagree.



Yeah but you're the only one here the thinks that the music doesn't contribute to sXe.

[xsecx]

1. you just added two other ways that they could have learned about straight edge, this does not address or invalidate my comment about straight edge people reaching out. and they would only stop calling themselves straight edge if someone like you told them not to, and not alot of people are doing that.


I don't have any reason to invalidate your comment that straight edge people are reaching out, that's what the music does by it's nature. It's not purely about preaching to the converted. However I don't understand the point that people don't stop calling themselves things until someone tells them no to, that's how things work, edge or not. I also don't understand you saying this since you said "i dont want it to look like im taking the hippy stance on this either because to be perfectly honest it boils my blood a little when some raver or hip hop dude starts saying he's straight edge. on a case to case basis i may even play the hypocrite and deny him." Which would tell me that it's more than me and people like me saying something.



2. its true that it is for the most part hardcore kids doing other things, but theyre attempting to institute straight edge into other genres, which again is only "not straight edge" in your opinion.


Giving shout outs at shows to kids who already straight edge isn't attempting to institute straight edge in other genres though. When there are bands that have no hardcore roots and have nothing to do with hardcore then your point will be valid, but there isn't and it isn't.



3. how is something a stretch that is actually happening. nothing i said that youre responding to was a theory, these tours and comments were made and i know im not the only one who knows someone who got their definition of straight edge from these bands.


Because it's had no impact and hasn't changed straight edge itself, that's why it's a stretch. A handful of kids here and there don't matter until it's a shitload of kids and a scene on to itself.



4. this paragraph simply boils down to your belief that music makes straight edge, again, i disagree.

So you think straight edge is just it's beliefs, which it isn't. It's like taking another similar subculture like the skins and saying it's just about being bald and ignoring everything else around it. Following your logic everyone who is drug free and promotes it is edge. The mormon church is drug free and promotes it, but would call them edge? Muslims? Hindus? Buddists? Are they all edge and just didn't know it? Or is there an actual and active subculture that you would need to be apart of to actually be edge? And how can you be active in a subculture if you're not taking part in the tie that binds, the music.

[xJon the conx]

Yeah but you're the only one here the thinks that the music doesn't contribute to sXe.


thats true but i dont consider this website necessarily indicitive of the straight edge scene. also it seems to me that you guys have a way of chasing off or shutting up people who dont agree with you, which is to your credit i guess, but i feel that this website is geared toward the posi scenester side of straight edge, which is not necessarily the only group involved in the movement.

[xsecx]

thats true but i dont consider this website necessarily indicitive of the straight edge scene. also it seems to me that you guys have a way of chasing off or shutting up people who dont agree with you, which is to your credit i guess, but i feel that this website is geared toward the posi scenester side of straight edge, which is not necessarily the only group involved in the movement.

posi yes, scenester, no.

[xJon the conx]

I don't have any reason to invalidate your comment that straight edge people are reaching out, that's what the music does by it's nature. It's not purely about preaching to the converted. However I don't understand the point that people don't stop calling themselves things until someone tells them no to, that's how things work, edge or not. I also don't understand you saying this since you said "i dont want it to look like im taking the hippy stance on this either because to be perfectly honest it boils my blood a little when some raver or hip hop dude starts saying he's straight edge. on a case to case basis i may even play the hypocrite and deny him." Which would tell me that it's more than me and people like me saying something.



Giving shout outs at shows to kids who already straight edge isn't attempting to institute straight edge in other genres though. When there are bands that have no hardcore roots and have nothing to do with hardcore then your point will be valid, but there isn't and it isn't.



Because it's had no impact and hasn't changed straight edge itself, that's why it's a stretch. A handful of kids here and there don't matter until it's a shitload of kids and a scene on to itself.



So you think straight edge is just it's beliefs, which it isn't. It's like taking another similar subculture like the skins and saying it's just about being bald and ignoring everything else around it. Following your logic everyone who is drug free and promotes it is edge. The mormon church is drug free and promotes it, but would call them edge? Muslims? Hindus? Buddists? Are they all edge and just didn't know it? Or is there an actual and active subculture that you would need to be apart of to actually be edge? And how can you be active in a subculture if you're not taking part in the tie that binds, the music.


1. well in response to that i said that it would be a touch hypocritical of me to do so. and youre not going to be the only one reserving right to the name on a case by case basis, but thats different than making the general statement of "people who arent into hardcore cant be straight edge" which in my experience is not the overall national opinion of straight edge as a whole.

2. but the argument is that they play to crowds where not everyone is straight edge and where straight edge kids are even in some cases in the minority.

3. we're not talking about changing straight edge with a huge influx of new people, we're discussing whether or not those smaller numbers of people who do hear the word are welcome to be straight edge, again i say they are, you disagree.

4. im not arguing that straight edge is necessarily JUST the beliefs involved, but i am arguing that your definition of who can and cannot function under the moniker is too strict, especially in todays music scene. hardcore itself has become interrelated with pretty much every other underground form of music in existance, i argue that as the hardcore community has branched out, so has the straight edge. there is considerable difference between someone involved in the death metal community who interacts with members of the hardcore scene frequently being straight edge, and a 50 year old mormon. i understand your idea that there is a line to be drawn, i just dont think that line is specifically "hardcore" just because that was where it was born and has enjoyed the most popularity.

[xsecx]

4. im not arguing that straight edge is necessarily JUST the beliefs involved, but i am arguing that your definition of who can and cannot function under the moniker is too strict, especially in todays music scene. hardcore itself has become interrelated with pretty much every other underground form of music in existance, i argue that as the hardcore community has branched out, so has the straight edge. there is considerable difference between someone involved in the death metal community who interacts with members of the hardcore scene frequently being straight edge, and a 50 year old mormon. i understand your idea that there is a line to be drawn, i just dont think that line is specifically "hardcore" just because that was where it was born and has enjoyed the most popularity.

it's too strict, but you want it to include only the things you like and dismiss the ones you don't? If it's not necessarily JUST the beliefs, then how is a rockabilly kid straight edge? How is a kid who only listens metal straight edge? It's either about the beliefs or the subculture. The beliefs aren't unique, the subculture is. You expand the subculture you get something without definition and then it's just back to the beliefs with no connection to the subculture.

[xJon the conx]

it's too strict, but you want it to include only the things you like and dismiss the ones you don't? If it's not necessarily JUST the beliefs, then how is a rockabilly kid straight edge? How is a kid who only listens metal straight edge? It's either about the beliefs or the subculture. The beliefs aren't unique, the subculture is. You expand the subculture you get something without definition and then it's just back to the beliefs with no connection to the subculture.


well of course i want it to only include the things that i want, thats what we all want. you want it to only include hardcore, i want it to only include the underground rock scene that i deem worthy.

however even though that may be what i want, i acknowledge that it is not my place to definently say "this person is not straight edge because he listens to techno" hence my case by case approach to revoking someones validity. i believe that hardcore is part of an expanded subculture without definition and i can entertain the idea that here and there a raver or two has slipped through the cracks and become straight edge even though i think techno is totally weak.

i think that your outlook on the importance of hardcores role in straight edge would be better served to say " if you want to call yourself straight edge then you should educate yourself on the roots of the movement, or else youre just some drug free poser" insead of attempting to keep everyone else out.

as an example alot of people could call themselves hardcore because they listen to bleeding through, but if they've never heard of the cro mags then i'd consider them something of a poser. just like i respect someone who is familar with hardcore alot more if they have a working knowledge of the musical forms that influenced it. but then again like i said before, i consider hardcore to be a part of an expanded subculture. which may be where our initial differentiating outlooks stem from.

[xsecx]

well of course i want it to only include the things that i want, thats what we all want. you want it to only include hardcore, i want it to only include the underground rock scene that i deem worthy.

however even though that may be what i want, i acknowledge that it is not my place to definently say "this person is not straight edge because he listens to techno" hence my case by case approach to revoking someones validity. i believe that hardcore is part of an expanded subculture without definition and i can entertain the idea that here and there a raver or two has slipped through the cracks and become straight edge even though i think techno is totally weak.

i think that your outlook on the importance of hardcores role in straight edge would be better served to say " if you want to call yourself straight edge then you should educate yourself on the roots of the movement, or else youre just some drug free poser" insead of attempting to keep everyone else out.

as an example alot of people could call themselves hardcore because they listen to bleeding through, but if they've never heard of the cro mags then i'd consider them something of a poser. just like i respect someone who is familar with hardcore alot more if they have a working knowledge of the musical forms that influenced it. but then again like i said before, i consider hardcore to be a part of an expanded subculture. which may be where our initial differentiating outlooks stem from.

yeah but mine isn't up to my personal opinion or whim. I'm saying, this is what straight edge is, here's the criteria. It's a subculture that has beliefs x, and practices y and is characterized by z. This isn't about what music I personally like and think is worthy rather it's an actual reflection of the people that actually involved with things versus various other people who aren't involved but simply attach a label to themselves incorrectly. I'm not about keeping anyone out and I'm not sure where you get that impression, since you're accusing us of being posi. I am for people using terms and labels that actually represent who they are and what they're about rather than one because you like the sound of it.

[xJon the conx]

yeah but mine isn't up to my personal opinion or whim. I'm saying, this is what straight edge is, here's the criteria. It's a subculture that has beliefs x, and practices y and is characterized by z. This isn't about what music I personally like and think is worthy rather it's an actual reflection of the people that actually involved with things versus various other people who aren't involved but simply attach a label to themselves incorrectly. I'm not about keeping anyone out and I'm not sure where you get that impression, since you're accusing us of being posi. I am for people using terms and labels that actually represent who they are and what they're about rather than one because you like the sound of it.


accusing you of being posi, i like that.

i see what youre saying but i still disagree, you have the x,y, and z, scenario which pertains to everything but that dosent really change that our argument is about the "y", which is the practices of the people who are straight edge. you argue that it is factual that said "y" practice must be followed for something to be straight edge, and im arguing that your definition of "y" is too strict.

it would be as if we we're attempting to classify some animal and you said "this form of animal must always swim or it is not this animal" and i am arguing "this animal most commonly swims, but i believe that this animal can also fly and yet still be the same creature due to its other classified properties"

[xsecx]

accusing you of being posi, i like that.

i see what youre saying but i still disagree, you have the x,y, and z, scenario which pertains to everything but that dosent really change that our argument is about the "y", which is the practices of the people who are straight edge. you argue that it is factual that said "y" practice must be followed for something to be straight edge, and im arguing that your definition of "y" is too strict.

it would be as if we we're attempting to classify some animal and you said "this form of animal must always swim or it is not this animal" and i am arguing "this animal most commonly swims, but i believe that this animal can also fly and yet still be the same creature due to its other classified properties"

right but what you're talking about is something without definition and would be necessity throw out characteristics. Definitions are strict, that's how things have meanings. When they don't, you end up with something without meaning. In this case you end up with kids at the mall x'ing up because they saw it on an AFI video without having any understanding of what it's about. You maintain integrity by having straight edge mean something otherwise you're left with a term that does in fact describe 50 year old mormons because when people think straight edge they think of people that are drug free and that's the only part straight edge that matters and that's what I see happening and that's what I'm trying to prevent from happening in the future. I'd love a world full of actual straight edge people. I wouldn't love a world of mormons and I don't think you would either. The only way to "know the roots" is to be apart of it, and the only way to be apart of those roots is to be involved at least to some level with hardcore.

[xJon the conx]

right but what you're talking about is something without definition and would be necessity throw out characteristics. Definitions are strict, that's how things have meanings. When they don't, you end up with something without meaning. In this case you end up with kids at the mall x'ing up because they saw it on an AFI video without having any understanding of what it's about. You maintain integrity by having straight edge mean something otherwise you're left with a term that does in fact describe 50 year old mormons because when people think straight edge they think of people that are drug free and that's the only part straight edge that matters and that's what I see happening and that's what I'm trying to prevent from happening in the future. I'd love a world full of actual straight edge people. I wouldn't love a world of mormons and I don't think you would either. The only way to "know the roots" is to be apart of it, and the only way to be apart of those roots is to be involved at least to some level with hardcore.


i think that we're on the verge of agreement, with your "to some level with hardcore" comment. as i too fear a world full of x-ed up mall punks. i think maybe youre thinking that im more liberal than i am in my relating opinions and im thinking youre more conservative than you are.

[xsecx]

i think that we're on the verge of agreement, with your "to some level with hardcore" comment. as i too fear a world full of x-ed up mall punks. i think maybe youre thinking that im more liberal than i am in my relating opinions and im thinking youre more conservative than you are.

at no point did I say hardcore and hardcore only though. I just don't see how you can be straight edge without it and I can't see how you can "know the roots" without it.

[xJon the conx]

at no point did I say hardcore and hardcore only though. I just don't see how you can be straight edge without it and I can't see how you can "know the roots" without it.


see now a statement like that i could see myself agreeing with. i think we still butt heads to some small degree on certain aspects of the argument, but i think we're both in agreement that the history of the straight edge movement (which exists almost soley in hardcore) must be acknowledged and understood by someone who wants to use the term without looking like a fool.

[xsecx]

see now a statement like that i could see myself agreeing with. i think we still butt heads to some small degree on certain aspects of the argument, but i think we're both in agreement that the history of the straight edge movement (which exists almost soley in hardcore) must be acknowledged and understood by someone who wants to use the term without looking like a fool.

right but I guess where I'm lost is how you can acknowledge/understand the history and the present from the outside and from something you don't like.

[xJon the conx]

right but I guess where I'm lost is how you can acknowledge/understand the history and the present from the outside and from something you don't like.

im not sure i completely follow what youre saying up there, but if what youre saying is that you dont understand how i can accept both the legitimate hardcore sxe and the illigitimate mall sxe, then i would say that there is a misunderstanding in my willingness to accept the mall crowd.

i was left earlier with the impression that you were arguing against kids who were'nt in essence "hardcore" being straight edge, and i was arguing that in certain cases there were people who were not originally or currently involved in hardcore persay which i feel qualify as straight edge. i believe that i was mistaken in my assumption that you were arguing a more conservative belief system than you actually were, and i think youre under the incorrect assumption that im trying to call anyone who has ever heard of straight edge and is drug free "straight edge" which i am not.

my theory on who i would consider eligible would be people who are from what i consider the inner circle of the underground music scene, people involved with various forms of metal, hardore, punk, ect. with a working knowledge and involvement in the scene of which hardcore is only a part. i do not however extend this eligibility to people who i dont believe have a legitimate tie to the scene. (seeing an afi video on mtv) i mean thats really just the same argument as "who do you consider punk" or "hardcore" i believe that when youre disussing the "people who know" in the interrelated underground genres, there is room for straight edge withing say, the legitimate punk/metal scenes.

however i dont think youre really arguing against this because most anyone involved in those scenes would have an association and understanding or involvement of hardcore and straight edge. my current understanding of your argument is simply the importance of the tie between straight edge and hardcore, and the illigetimacy of someone with no understanding or tie to it. to which i would be more or less in agreement

[Nam]

Ok, here's a different example. Emo's another label that's been used a lot recently. Some people shunningly call others emo merely because of the way they dress or act. But in reality, most of these people don't know what they're talking about. You don't have to listen to ONLY emo music, but the label comes from a specific music scene. To really be emo, you gotta listen to that music. You can't just say, "I am emotional and thus I am emo."

The same goes with sXe. If Brittany Spears came out during a concert and said, "I don't do drugs! Go straight-edge!" As unlikely as that is, it still wouldn't mean that people who listen to pop and don't do drugs are edge. Maybe it'd start a movement, but it would be completely different from sXe.

Of course, you'll have some grey-area bands that some people claim are edge and others who deny it. That's when trouble can arise. But getting into fights because of a social label is a bit extreme.

If it seems close-minded that sXers limit it to fans of hardcore, think of it this way. Let's say you believe in the 10 commandments but don't believe in Jesus (a contradictory example, I know). You still can't call yourself a Catholic or Christian for that matter. Christianity is what it is because of a central person. You can believe in all of the ideals, but if you don't believe that Jesus is the son/reincarnate/etc of God, you can't call yourself a Christian. That's the way sXe is. You have more of a Buddhist conception of sXe which is along the lines of "if you believe in our philosophy, then you can be a part of what we are no matter whatever non-contradicting beliefs you may have." Don't take me the wrong way and start claiming that I'm proclaiming sXe a religion. I'm just saying that like religion, sXe has some vital aspects that make it what it is.

[NailedtotheX]

honestly i think it's kind of hard to find music to listen to outside of hardcore when you're straightedge. for example, i've been listening to hardcore for years, but i've also listened to a ton of other shit.... industrial, darkwave, pyschobilly, progressive, jazz, the list goes on forever... however, so much of it, even if only slightly, promotes substance abuse. it's like someone who's not edge trying to listen to Casey Jones- I imagine they'd have a hard time getting into it.

[missjulz]

i feel straight edge, therefore i am. this whole argument is silly. just do what you want to do and nevermind what others think. no one is harming anyone. it doesn't matter in the end. take away all the labels and just enjoy it for what it is. if you like hardcore. cool. if not, then its cool, too. the general attitude is to be clean from drugs, and that is a healthy lifestyle no matter what cd is in your stereo.

not that i disrespect the drugfree people that listen to hardcore and know their roots. they do have a deeper understanding of the scene and the motto behind it.

[SgtD]

i feel straight edge, therefore i am. this whole argument is silly. just do what you want to do and nevermind what others think. no one is harming anyone. it doesn't matter in the end. take away all the labels and just enjoy it for what it is. if you like hardcore. cool. if not, then its cool, too. the general attitude is to be clean from drugs, and that is a healthy lifestyle no matter what cd is in your stereo.

not that i disrespect the drugfree people that listen to hardcore and know their roots. they do have a deeper understanding of the scene and the motto behind it.
have you even read the thread?

[xsecx]

i feel straight edge, therefore i am. this whole argument is silly. just do what you want to do and nevermind what others think. no one is harming anyone. it doesn't matter in the end. take away all the labels and just enjoy it for what it is. if you like hardcore. cool. if not, then its cool, too. the general attitude is to be clean from drugs, and that is a healthy lifestyle no matter what cd is in your stereo.

not that i disrespect the drugfree people that listen to hardcore and know their roots. they do have a deeper understanding of the scene and the motto behind it.

but to be straight edge means more than just what your views on drugs is. If you take away that label you're still left with what that label means which still extends beyond simply what substances you don't use.

[xNaturallyHighx]

i dont do drugs, i dont drink alcohol, and i dont realy listen to hardcore music. but i love music and comepletely respect hardcore music and understand that sXe came from the hardcore scene. i listened to straight edge by minor threat and thats what made me stop using drugs. it didnt sound like minor threat wanted only people from the hardcore scene to get off drugs, it sounded like they wanted everybody to be a straight edge.

[xsecx]

i dont do drugs, i dont drink alcohol, and i dont realy listen to hardcore music. but i love music and comepletely respect hardcore music and understand that sXe came from the hardcore scene. i listened to straight edge by minor threat and thats what made me stop using drugs. it didnt sound like minor threat wanted only people from the hardcore scene to get off drugs, it sounded like they wanted everybody to be a straight edge.

Minor Threat didn't want straight edge to be what it became at all though. They also weren't the only band to influence what straight edge was and is. If your knowledge of straight edge history begins and ends with Minor Threat then you're not looking at the total picture.

[pgcdan]

gay

[xsecx]

gay

and thanks for your contribution. I'm glad you've decided to waste your time without actually saying anything of value.

[pgcdan]

draw big Xs on your hands if you want, youre not going to get arrested

[xsecx]

draw big Xs on your hands if you want, youre not going to get arrested

yeah because that's the point of what is being discussed. you can call yourself whatever you want, that doesn't make it true or accurate.

[bluevoodoodoll]

I don't think you have to listen to hardcore ALL the time to be considered Straight Edge, but I do think that if you NEVER listen to hardcore or go to shows then you are just a cool drug free kid.

And I do think Straight Edge is a little group just for special people, thats one thing that makes it what it is, it's not a group for everyone who is drug free, a lot of Christians are drug free and I defintiely feel like Straight Edge is NOT for Christians.

I always thought of Straight Edge as being true punk, it's about definitely not being main stream, it's about going against the grain in a very real, active, way, it's about being yourself and not being under the influence of anything (substance or way of thinking) that takes you away from yourself, that takes away your own power and strength and thought. And all of that is based in hardcore music, hardcore life style, hardcore action in things, so in that sense it is for a special little group of people who are willing and able to make a hardcore commitment.

[stepinsideissue]

I don't think you have to listen to hardcore ALL the time to be considered Straight Edge, but I do think that if you NEVER listen to hardcore or go to shows then you are just a cool drug free kid.

And I do think Straight Edge is a little group just for special people, thats one thing that makes it what it is, it's not a group for everyone who is drug free, a lot of Christians are drug free and I defintiely feel like Straight Edge is NOT for Christians.

I always thought of Straight Edge as being true punk, it's about definitely not being main stream, it's about going against the grain in a very real, active, way, it's about being yourself and not being under the influence of anything (substance or way of thinking) that takes you away from yourself, that takes away your own power and strength and thought. And all of that is based in hardcore music, hardcore life style, hardcore action in things, so in that sense it is for a special little group of people who are willing and able to make a hardcore commitment.


That is a very good perception. Especially not for the christians part.

[hxcsxe]

straight edge is a music based subculture and that music is hardcore. Why do you think that straight edge doesn't have to include the music it was born in and the music that's been used to spread that message since the beginning?

i hear ppl say there sxe wen they have never heard hxc b4 just like ppl say hxc all the time as enthersis on the words.

i understand that sxe is a huge part of proper hxc music
but some ppl dont know that

[straightXed]

i hear ppl say there sxe wen they have never heard hxc b4 just like ppl say hxc all the time as enthersis on the words.



Yeah but those people don't understand what they are calling themselves then. Straightedge is not seperable from hardcore as hardcore is what makes straightedge unique from just being drug free. I know people like to use the term incorrectly to describe themselves but the fact is they are innacurately describing themselves.


i understand that sxe is a huge part of proper hxc music
but some ppl dont know that

The issue is more a case of hxc being a huge and integeral part of sxe otherwise you are left with "drug free" that simply describes anyone who doesn't do drugs from mormons to peoples grandmothers. That takes away what makes straightedge crucial and unique.

[CaptainCarr]

yeah, i DO NOT get why people who have no clue what hardcore is can call themselves straightedge. if the movement is based around the music, then what is the movement without the music? its a kid trying to fit in.. and failing miserably