music and edge

[xsecx]

It's pretty obvious how I feel about it. but I've been thinking today. If you think that straight edge has "evolved" out of hardcore and become something else, what is it then? What is this new version of straight edge and what does it mean? Is it just a bunch of beliefs? And if it is, then how is that any different from drug free and why/where/how did it turn into just beliefs?

[xCrucialDudex]

If you think that straight edge has "evolved" out of hardcore and become something else, what is it then? What is this new version of straight edge and what does it mean? Is it just a bunch of beliefs? And if it is, then how is that any different from drug free and why/where/how did it turn into just beliefs?

It helps one become conscious. First off, drug free. Further on, I think those who can see the good side of this go even farther and apply consciousness to almost each part of their lives. Seriously, what I experienced was exactly what I said: it helps me get more and more conscious about many things of my life, primarily about myself. From that perspective, sXe "evolves out of hardcore" and becomes a very useful "bunch of beliefs".

This is only a positive side-effect of sXe, yet consciousness isn't really supposed to be gained with any particular thing in the world. If it's a book for you or say a specific person in your life - that's all the same. Someone picks up a book that changes his or her life, someone gets into sXe.

Well, like that.

[xsecx]

It helps one become conscious. First off, drug free. Further on, I think those who can see the good side of this go even farther and apply consciousness to almost each part of their lives. Seriously, what I experienced was exactly what I said: it helps me get more and more conscious about many things of my life, primarily about myself. From that perspective, sXe "evolves out of hardcore" and becomes a very useful "bunch of beliefs".

This is only a positive side-effect of sXe, yet consciousness isn't really supposed to be gained with any particular thing in the world. If it's a book for you or say a specific person in your life - that's all the same. Someone picks up a book that changes his or her life, someone gets into sXe.

Well, like that.

this doesn't make sense to me.

[straightXed]

It helps one become conscious. First off, drug free. Further on, I think those who can see the good side of this go even farther and apply consciousness to almost each part of their lives. Seriously, what I experienced was exactly what I said: it helps me get more and more conscious about many things of my life, primarily about myself. From that perspective, sXe "evolves out of hardcore" and becomes a very useful "bunch of beliefs".

Yeah surely thats not straightedge once its evolved, its starting point may have began at straightedge but you finding yourself thinking about and questioning other aspects of your life doesn't get encompassed by the definition of straightedge. Unless theres some new definition, i apply consciousness to areas of my life from finance to study, i don't believe straightedge is at play there but i don't believe it to be the root of my consciousness. I mean if i drank a beer would i not still apply consciousness? Sure straightedge illustrates a sensible life choice and you can say other life choices can follow this order but does a sensible choice make it straightedge? Its like you evolve to be you and straightedge doesn't describe all of those evoloutions you have made even if it did help spark them in some way.


This is only a positive side-effect of sXe, yet consciousness isn't really supposed to be gained with any particular thing in the world. If it's a book for you or say a specific person in your life - that's all the same. Someone picks up a book that changes his or her life, someone gets into sXe.

Well, like that.

It doesn't really show straightedge evolving out of hardcore though? I mean if you get into straightedge then sure your life will be effected by it but this doesn't describe some new straightedge that is more than just drug free but not involved in hardcore. I mean how would you describe a belief set that has evolved out of hardcore and become something else?

[yaslmiri]

the way i've always heard it is that straight edge is a drug free life style surrounding hardcore music. just bieng drug free doesn't make you straight edge, rite?

[stepinsideissue]

the way i've always heard it is that straight edge is a drug free life style surrounding hardcore music. just bieng drug free doesn't make you straight edge, rite?


Thats right.

[hxcsxe]

i was straight edge before i realy knew bout sxe i thought i was the only one that didnt want drugs i didnt know there was a music scene for sxe untill i heard early hardcore bands chanting sxe i was like wow its found me im not alone in this world

[xsecx]

i was straight edge before i realy knew bout sxe i thought i was the only one that didnt want drugs i didnt know there was a music scene for sxe untill i heard early hardcore bands chanting sxe i was like wow its found me im not alone in this world

yeah but the point is that you can't be straight edge without knowing about it. you can be drug free, but straight edge is a specific subculture that you are an active part of.

[xCrucialDudex]

then, there's no straight-edge stripped of hardcore, that's another thing, very similar to it, perhaps influenced by straight-edge but it's not straight-edge in terms. Right?

[xsecx]

then, there's no straight-edge stripped of hardcore, that's another thing, very similar to it, perhaps influenced by straight-edge but it's not straight-edge in terms. Right?

yeah but then you're still back in the same trap, how can you be influenced by straight edge without hardcore?

[xCrucialDudex]

yeah but then you're still back in the same trap, how can you be influenced by straight edge without hardcore?

Well, you imply following (Ill paraphrase you, correct me if I got you wrong) "how can you be influenced by straight edge without being involved into hardcore scene". Is that right?

What I mean is that roughly we could classify influence into two types:
1. hardcore scene, i.e. active participation in the scene life and development;
2. musical influence, i.e. simply plain one's relation to straight edge is limited to person's admiration of hardcore music, but he/she isn't a part of the movement.

1 - straight edge
2 - not straight edge

in terms.
Which is fairly right, I think.

So, back to one of your first questions, straight edge can't be talked about as evolved out of hardcore just because many people got influenced by (1, 2 ... n) reasons.

Speaking in terms.

[xsecx]

Well, you imply following (Ill paraphrase you, correct me if I got you wrong) "how can you be influenced by straight edge without being involved into hardcore scene". Is that right?

What I mean is that roughly we could classify influence into two types:
1. hardcore scene, i.e. active participation in the scene life and development;
2. musical influence, i.e. simply plain one's relation to straight edge is limited to person's admiration of hardcore music, but he/she isn't a part of the movement.

1 - straight edge
2 - not straight edge

in terms.
Which is fairly right, I think.

So, back to one of your first questions, straight edge can't be talked about as evolved out of hardcore just because many people got influenced by (1, 2 ... n) reasons.

Speaking in terms.

no, I didn't say scene on purpose. What you're describing is still influence based on music. You can't talk about straight edge without the music, because it's what makes it unique. This is also why I can't see how you can influenced by straight edge, not drug free, without the music.

[x B x FO x]

no, I didn't say scene on purpose. What you're describing is still influence based on music. You can't talk about straight edge without the music, because it's what makes it unique. This is also why I can't see how you can influenced by straight edge, not drug free, without the music.

i agree with u on this one, people see straight edge as just kids who dont drink do drugs and have sex which isnt it. people who think this just say there straight edge because they just decide not to do these things. in order to be actaully straight edge, music and the straight edge "scene" is what makes you that.

[xCrucialDudex]

This is also why I can't see how you can influenced by straight edge, not drug free, without the music.

Agree, that's like saying "I'm a cosmonaut" because I've only got a full-pressure suit in the closet. That is, n-o-n-e-s-e--n-s-e.



no, I didn't say scene on purpose. What you're describing is still influence based on music. You can't talk about straight edge without the music,

On the 1st page of sxe.com you say that you can't be regarded a straight-edger if you never been to show and such things. Though that piece of message is more of literary type rather than factual.

[xsecx]

On the 1st page of sxe.com you say that you can't be regarded a straight-edger if you never been to show and such things. Though that piece of message is more of literary type rather than factual.

which is to get the point across more bluntly. If you're into the music and there's no scene around you then yeah you've got a better idea of things than someone who's never listened to an edge band, but you still don't have a full understanding of it yet. That was said specifically to people who say shit like "hell yeah I'm straight edge, I love it, I've been edge forever! I fucking hate hardcore!" Who honestly have no idea what they're calling themselves and I still can't figure out why someone who hates hardcore would say that they were straight edge.

[crissXdravan]

I like hXc, I listen to it and enjoy it but I find it pretty hard to find any real good hXc bands anymore. Around here we do get a lot of death metal bands and I have been to some hXc but its harder around here. I am always in a mosh pit no matter what show I am at (Except for Disturbed which I regret big time, I had someone with me who doesnt mosh) and its almost a god damn slap in the face to most bands if you dont mosh.

sXe is almost no different. If you havent been pushed, shoved, punched, tackled, and maybe even bled, you havent lived period. Pain is my high, I love it and cant get enough of it. A moshpit is like a warzone where you build a bond with people and you go out there and get it done.

The music is a huge part of the scene, not just the music but the shows and the activities. If you listen to sXe music then awesome but even if there isnt a sXe scene around you, go to some other shows, some hXc shows, death metal, heavy metal, just go and get in that pit.

[xCrucialDudex]

which is to get the point across more bluntly. If you're into the music and there's no scene around you then yeah you've got a better idea of things than someone who's never listened to an edge band, but you still don't have a full understanding of it yet. That was said specifically to people who say shit like "hell yeah I'm straight edge, I love it, I've been edge forever! I fucking hate hardcore!" Who honestly have no idea what they're calling themselves and I still can't figure out why someone who hates hardcore would say that they were straight edge.

Well, you know, I spend quite a bit of my life on IRC networks for a number of reasons and sometimes i meet people out there who pick up "x ... x"-framed nicknames. Most of them I asked if they were straight-edge answered that they were not. I questioned why then pick up such a nickname, since it labels you and makes others expect you to be responsible for that choice, folks answer "this is just a web thingy".

That's it.

I know quite a number of people personally who fairly believe to be programmers though they actually are not.

It happens everywhere, stupid people may go for anything just because there's some hype around it. The more intriguing the hype is, the more people think it's a cool thing to be related to. At least marginally.


Well,
back to the original point.

Straight-edge is inseparable from hardcore music (which is the main component of hxc scene, any music scene in fact).

So, the problem you referred is just stupid people doing the same thing they do to anything in the world, but as far as we know there's no written statement of what straight edge is. This means some of us could agree that its okay for someone to be straight edge even though they hate hardcore. Well, I can't see any point in that. Since it was always out there - healthy lifestyle.

"Straight-edge means hardcore". Stupid people means stupid people.
Now, let me ask you if there are talks among those who relate to your local hxc scene about straight-edge separated from hardcore? What are arguments of those people? How do they explain being straight-edge and hating hardcore?

[xCrucialDudex]

If you listen to sXe music then awesome but even if there isnt a sXe scene around you, go to some other shows, some hXc shows, death metal, heavy metal, just go and get in that pit.

Hell if I go to death metal or heavy metal show. I don't like the genres much, so why should I go to these shows only because there are no hxc ones???

Id rather put my headphones on and go skating than that.

[xsecx]

"Straight-edge means hardcore". Stupid people means stupid people.
Now, let me ask you if there are talks among those who relate to your local hxc scene about straight-edge separated from hardcore? What are arguments of those people? How do they explain being straight-edge and hating hardcore?

no, like most things this exists purely on the internet and by people who have no connection to what straight edge actually is. occasionally they will come here and try and talk about how it's expanded beyond hardcore but they never get very far and the argument falls apart really quickly.

[hxcsxe]

which is to get the point across more bluntly. If you're into the music and there's no scene around you then yeah you've got a better idea of things than someone who's never listened to an edge band, but you still don't have a full understanding of it yet. That was said specifically to people who say shit like "hell yeah I'm straight edge, I love it, I've been edge forever! I fucking hate hardcore!" Who honestly have no idea what they're calling themselves and I still can't figure out why someone who hates hardcore would say that they were straight edge.
because they are morons

[xCrucialDudex]

From all what we discussed above, I dare to make one more attempt and try to answer your initial questions:


If you think that straight edge has "evolved" out of hardcore and become something else, what is it then?

It is a fraud then. Straight-edge means hardcore. There's no straight-edge without hardcore music. If one thinks there is, he/she confuses it with healthy lifestyle and by calling themselves sxe they actually become poseurs in terms of general vocabulary.


What is this new version of straight edge and what does it mean?

There is no new version of straight-edge.
It means a wack hype. People supporting this pseudo straight-edge are unaware of what the "real" straight-edge means.


Is it just a bunch of beliefs?

Yes, it is a bunch of wack beliefs that healthy life-style means straight-edge.


And if it is, then how is that any different from drug free and why/where/how did it turn into just beliefs?

It turned into just beliefs when people decided it to be possible to separate straigh-edge and hardcore music.


--------
First answers to questoins that can be used to compile sxe.com "Straight-edge & Frauds" F.A.Q. :D
PS: Edited. Corrected some grammar mistakes. Hopefully, it's all correct now.

[XThe EdgeX]

we have never had a problem with this in our area....its always been, I f your sxe then you go to shows and then if your not and you go to them..thats fine also...but if youa re then you go to them...and its never a big debate about the music...we keep it simple, SXE,live for the music and have fun at the shows...thats what the shows are about...immersing yourself in the music and bonding with firends, making new ones and overall just Being free!
_john_
This Is Not A DebateXXXThis Is WAR!

[xsecx]

we have never had a problem with this in our area....its always been, I f your sxe then you go to shows and then if your not and you go to them..thats fine also...but if youa re then you go to them...and its never a big debate about the music...we keep it simple, SXE,live for the music and have fun at the shows...thats what the shows are about...immersing yourself in the music and bonding with firends, making new ones and overall just Being free!
_john_
This Is Not A DebateXXXThis Is WAR!

yeah but this isn't something you'll run into in public for the most part. the people you'd interact with at shows would be edge. these are people who's only connection to anything is the internet, they're not actually a part of anything.

[poison_down_thedrain]

sxe will always be hardcore..metal ska punk even pop rockers can be influenced by sxe but if they dont suport the hard core scene and the straight edge scene,then they are not straight edge.......its really kinda simple.......you can call yourself what ever you want .but its whats in your heart and in your soul that relly counts..and no i dont clame to be a straight edge...but i do like the idea and the help you give....

[hxcsxe]

sxe will always be hardcore..metal ska punk even pop rockers can be influenced by sxe but if they dont suport the hard core scene and the straight edge scene,then they are not straight edge.......its really kinda simple.......you can call yourself what ever you want .but its whats in your heart and in your soul that relly counts..and no i dont clame to be a straight edge...but i do like the idea and the help you give....
clap clap clap

[NorskVegan]

I don't understand "Straight Edge = Hardcore". Obviously, without Hardcore there is no sXe, but without sXe surely there would still be Hardcore, although a slightly less healthy Hardcore at that.

[straightXed]

I don't understand "Straight Edge = Hardcore". Obviously, without Hardcore there is no sXe, but without sXe surely there would still be Hardcore, although a slightly less healthy Hardcore at that.


Yeah, who said there would be no hardcore without straightedge?

[NorskVegan]

Yeah, who said there would be no hardcore without straightedge?

The people who said sXe is hardcore. Unless I misread that and they meant hardcore as the adjective form of the noun...which I didn't know existed. I always thought it was lame when Heavy Metal fans say things like, "Oh, that's so heavy metal!"

[straightXed]

The people who said sXe is hardcore. Unless I misread that and they meant hardcore as the adjective form of the noun...which I didn't know existed. I always thought it was lame when Heavy Metal fans say things like, "Oh, that's so heavy metal!"

Sxe is hardcore as in not removable from hardcore, hardcore is not straightedge as in not solely made up of sxe and doesn't need to be straightedge at all. Pretty simple. Use the quote button dude, it makes things easier!

[NorskVegan]

Hmph...I find it a misleading phrase.

[xsecx]

Hmph...I find it a misleading phrase.

how is it a misleading phrase when straight edge was fundamental to the creation of hardcore and you can't talk about straight edge without talking about hardcore?

[straightXed]

Hmph...I find it a misleading phrase.


I don't think its that misleading, if you follow the whole argument.

[NorskVegan]

how is it a misleading phrase when straight edge was fundamental to the creation of hardcore and you can't talk about straight edge without talking about hardcore?

You have to forgive me because I'm still learning about straight edge. I was under the impression that straight edge grew out of the existing hardcore scene. I thought that hardcore was, and straight edge became (assisting in the evolution of hardcore itself as time grew on.) The way I was looking at it, obviously you can't talk about sXe without mentioning hardcore because it doesn't exist independently of hardcore, but there are many hardcore bands that are atleast not openly straight edge, right? I think it's misleading because if straight edge is hardcore, then surely hardcore must be straight edge.

[xsecx]

You have to forgive me because I'm still learning about straight edge. I was under the impression that straight edge grew out of the existing hardcore scene. I thought that hardcore was, and straight edge became (assisting in the evolution of hardcore itself as time grew on.) The way I was looking at it, obviously you can't talk about sXe without mentioning hardcore because it doesn't exist independently of hardcore, but there are many hardcore bands that are atleast not openly straight edge, right? I think it's misleading because if straight edge is hardcore, then surely hardcore must be straight edge.

straight edge and hardcore came out of an existing punk scene, but a good number of the first hardcore bands were straight edge and straight edge was extremely instrumental to the foundation and spread of hardcore.

there are a bunch of bands that aren't straight edge, however if you're going to talk about hardcore you can't really do it completely without mentioning straight edge.

[NorskVegan]

I see what you're saying.

[SteelKain]

With the movement so attached to a genre of music, how can it grow?
In addition to accepting the ideals, new straight-edgers have to listen to hxc?
How can you reach out to the world like that? I understand that it originated with hardcore but that doesn't mean it couldn't spread to country, hip-hop, and other forms of rock.
Not that those genres don't have positive messages, but they aren't as militant as straight-edge...

[xsecx]

With the movement so attached to a genre of music, how can it grow?
In addition to accepting the ideals, new straight-edgers have to listen to hxc?
How can you reach out to the world like that? I understand that it originated with hardcore but that doesn't mean it couldn't spread to country, hip-hop, and other forms of rock.
Not that those genres don't have positive messages, but they aren't as militant as straight-edge...

Why does it need to grow outside of hardcore? If it did spread to country or hiphop or other forms of rock that'd be awesome, but it would also be something new and not straight edge.

[SteelKain]

oh I understand what you're saying.

[X-Over-O]

Here's one I havn't seen at all here, and I've read through pretty much every post so far.

Everyone here is trying to compare two completely different things. For example...

Hardcore is a genre. Straight Edge is a lifestyle within that genre. You can't compare the music to the lifestlye! The lifestyle only exists because of the music. Hardcore has a reputation for people who do drugs, drink, smoke, and whatever. And Straight Edge is the same thing, the same music, the same scene, minus the drugs. However, drugs exist in any music scene! Therefore, would it not be far to also call a rocker, a metalhead, or a goth Straight Edge as well? The principal is exactly the same. But what you're hearing at shows is different.

"Straight Edge is Hardcore." BULLSHIT. Straight Edge is music. Do we hate the other genres so much we cannot include them with our lifestyle? It should be open to everyone! You are not Straight Edge because of Hardcore. You are Straight Edge because of yourself. Your own personal choices. Your own commitments. And the ownly reason you got there in the first place was because of the music, whether it be hardcore, punk, metal, emo, screamo, anything.

Open up a few more doors in your mind.

If, say, metal was the basis for Straight Edge and not hardcore, we would all be here saying the exact same thing from the metal side of things.

[PROPER JERK]

I really dont agree with your post, how many do you know that chose straight edge from listening to metal music? I was under the impression that most metal bands promoted drug and alcohol abuse. Straight Edge comes from hardcore, was born in hardcore and will always be hardcore.

No I dont believe you can be Straight Edge if you dont love hardcore, its part of being edge, its your positive outlet. Sure styles have changed a bit, its not quite the straight up hardcore anymore that straight edge bands are playing, but it comes out of hardcore.

As many people have said before, if your not a part of hardcore you are drug free, not straight edge.

[X-Over-O]

However...

I have seen a rare post or two claiming that you are not Straight Edge if there is no Straight Edge scene around. How can this be so? Straight Edge only exists in the presense of hardcore... It cannot exist on it's own. Without it's running foundations, what would it become? It's stupid to seperate two kinds of music literally the same purely because one is drug free and the other is not and the messages they carry. Therefore, would it not be sensible to agree that you can be Straight Edge regardless if that particular scene is present or not, as long as you still actively participate in the Hardcore scene.

On another note...

What do these scenes look like, in the terms of personal appearance. Is there any strict rule saying you cannot wear this or look like this but you have to wear this and look like this if you want to be "true" and not another wannabe or poser.

[xsecx]

However...

I have seen a rare post or two claiming that you are not Straight Edge if there is no Straight Edge scene around. How can this be so? Straight Edge only exists in the presense of hardcore... It cannot exist on it's own. Without it's running foundations, what would it become? It's stupid to seperate two kinds of music literally the same purely because one is drug free and the other is not and the messages they carry. Therefore, would it not be sensible to agree that you can be Straight Edge regardless if that particular scene is present or not, as long as you still actively participate in the Hardcore scene.



where is there a hardcore scene devoid of edge kids and never has edge bands play?This statement also contradicts your earlier post?



On another note...

What do these scenes look like, in the terms of personal appearance. Is there any strict rule saying you cannot wear this or look like this but you have to wear this and look like this if you want to be "true" and not another wannabe or poser.

this is true of any scene. everything has trends.

[X-Over-O]

I am saying this because of where I come from. The scene is tiny, and by scene I mean metal, hardcore, punk, emo, sceamo. I said this somewhere earlier as well.

No one here is edge. The people are so drug ducked it's not funny. That is why I take so much pride in being edge. At almost every hardcore show I go to, I'm offered a hit of coke or some free booze. People even have the guts to throw around ecstasy. I get dissed for being edge... Not that it stirs my opinions at all.

And yes, I am aware that my last post contradicts my earlier one. I am simpy trying to get my point across from a range of different views for the goal of ultimate understanding when I'm done.

As for the trend thing...

What is our trend? Do we have anything specific? Forgive me if sound naive but this relates to the fact I mentioned earlier about my local scene.

[xsecx]

I am saying this because of where I come from. The scene is tiny, and by scene I mean metal, hardcore, punk, emo, sceamo. I said this somewhere earlier as well.

No one here is edge. The people are so drug ducked it's not funny. That is why I take so much pride in being edge. At almost every hardcore show I go to, I'm offered a hit of coke or some free booze. People even have the guts to throw around ecstasy. I get dissed for being edge... Not that it stirs my opinions at all.

And yes, I am aware that my last post contradicts my earlier one. I am simpy trying to get my point across from a range of different views for the goal of ultimate understanding when I'm done.


What point across though? It's not clear what you're trying to say.



As for the trend thing...

What is our trend? Do we have anything specific? Forgive me if sound naive but this relates to the fact I mentioned earlier about my local scene.

I can't tell you what trends are in your scene as it's literally half a world away. Do you think there aren't any?

[PROPER JERK]

However...

I have seen a rare post or two claiming that you are not Straight Edge if there is no Straight Edge scene around. How can this be so? Straight Edge only exists in the presense of hardcore... It cannot exist on it's own. Without it's running foundations, what would it become? It's stupid to seperate two kinds of music literally the same purely because one is drug free and the other is not and the messages they carry. Therefore, would it not be sensible to agree that you can be Straight Edge regardless if that particular scene is present or not, as long as you still actively participate in the Hardcore scene.

On another note...

What do these scenes look like, in the terms of personal appearance. Is there any strict rule saying you cannot wear this or look like this but you have to wear this and look like this if you want to be "true" and not another wannabe or poser.

I still dont understand what you're trying to say, I am from Queensland as well by the way. What two kinds of music are you talking about, we never really got to pick up on that as you listed a few. Maybe list some bands and the genre you think they fall under and their straight edge messages/references. Also you say you get offered coke and ectasy and get dissed for being edge at hardcore shows? Where the fuck do you live man... anyone doing that round here would get whats coming to them.

[X-Over-O]

Maybe because I'm the only Edge person around...

Okay. I'm not going to stress my opinion and point of view any longer... I think maybe it's just something I'm saying because of the nature of my scene and everything, that you may never understand until you experience this particular scene for yourself. And why don't I stand up for myself? Think about it... 1 or 2 edge kids versus... Everyone else at the show... Not a good outcome.

[PROPER JERK]

I see, well I am glad I dont live in North Queensland. Come down to Brisbane or Byron for some good shows.

[X-Over-O]

Hey, the shows are great. But the people are fucked.

[X-Over-O]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have found that I must continue my argument to prove my point, without the arguing part.

My point is, it seems like what you guys are saying is that to be Edge or Hardcore or whatever, you must listen to ONLY hardcore and as little as anything else as possible?

Why so... I can't describe it? There are so many musical flavours to enjoy. The lifestyle you live really shouldn't dictate which bands and genres you can or cannot listen to. My opinion is that you can listen to whatever you want... So long as you still love hardcore and Edge, actively participating in that scene. Just because an Edge kid sits there with his iPod listening to Cradle of Filth, it doesn't mean he isn't edge. This is the message I'm hearing here... But regardless of what you say, I'll still be listening to whatever I want, and still calling myself Edge because I have enough guts to hop around at a hardcore show as the only Edge kid in my town.

[stepinsideissue]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have found that I must continue my argument to prove my point, without the arguing part.

My point is, it seems like what you guys are saying is that to be Edge or Hardcore or whatever, you must listen to ONLY hardcore and as little as anything else as possible?

Why so... I can't describe it? There are so many musical flavours to enjoy. The lifestyle you live really shouldn't dictate which bands and genres you can or cannot listen to. My opinion is that you can listen to whatever you want... So long as you still love hardcore and Edge, actively participating in that scene. Just because an Edge kid sits there with his iPod listening to Cradle of Filth, it doesn't mean he isn't edge. This is the message I'm hearing here... But regardless of what you say, I'll still be listening to whatever I want, and still calling myself Edge because I have enough guts to hop around at a hardcore show as the only Edge kid in my town.


You can be involved in hardcore and the hardcore music scene with out being straight edge. But to be straight edge you must be a part of the hardcore music scene seeing as how straight edge started in the hardcore music scene. No one as far as I recall ever said you have listen to nothing but hardcore. I'm sure everyone here has other listening tastes besides just hardcore. I know I do. But you do have to listen to it and supoort the bands and go to the shows to be straight edge.

[PROPER JERK]

I have been doing some thinking, and I have found that I must continue my argument to prove my point, without the arguing part.

My point is, it seems like what you guys are saying is that to be Edge or Hardcore or whatever, you must listen to ONLY hardcore and as little as anything else as possible?

Why so... I can't describe it? There are so many musical flavours to enjoy. The lifestyle you live really shouldn't dictate which bands and genres you can or cannot listen to. My opinion is that you can listen to whatever you want... So long as you still love hardcore and Edge, actively participating in that scene. Just because an Edge kid sits there with his iPod listening to Cradle of Filth, it doesn't mean he isn't edge. This is the message I'm hearing here... But regardless of what you say, I'll still be listening to whatever I want, and still calling myself Edge because I have enough guts to hop around at a hardcore show as the only Edge kid in my town.

No one ever said that you have to only listen to hardcore or straight edge bands... Someone who only listened to nothing but that would be pretty boring. You have to be a part of hardcore, love hardcore and be straight edge because of hardcore. You just cant be straight edge if you dont like hardcore and arent a part of it.

[FXXXing_Hannah]

about the hardcore music scene.... stuff.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT!?
Straight edge can mean different things to different people right?
I've heard of people who put things into their own "personal" edge. Such as cutting, masturbating, swearing.. ect. Straight edge is about not participating in things that could damage your life in drastic ways, its about proving that you don't need to chemically enhance your brain to have fun. Its about making decisions that are smart, and right. About being CLEAN. Not the music. I don't listen to hardcore music. I'm not hardcore in the least. I'm here because I believe that I don't have to get high or drunk to be me, and because I believe that I'm making a good decision by not participating in these things.

I can be edge without being hardcore.
Cant I?

[stepinsideissue]

about the hardcore music scene.... stuff.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT!?
Straight edge can mean different things to different people right?
I've heard of people who put things into their own "personal" edge. Such as cutting, masturbating, swearing.. ect. Straight edge is about not participating in things that could damage your life in drastic ways, its about proving that you don't need to chemically enhance your brain to have fun. Its about making decisions that are smart, and right. About being CLEAN. Not the music. I don't listen to hardcore music. I'm not hardcore in the least. I'm here because I believe that I don't have to get high or drunk to be me, and because I believe that I'm making a good decision by not participating in these things.

I can be edge without being hardcore.
Cant I?


You can't be edge with out hardcore. Thats what every one has been saying. And straight edge is straight edge. Not drinking not doing drugs and hardcore music. Nothing more nothing less. If people add those other things to thier lives thats all great and good but it is no way shape or form an aspect of straight edge. The same thing with the whole veganism topic. Alot of times it goes side by side with straight edge but the two are quite separate.

[xsecx]

about the hardcore music scene.... stuff.

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT!?
Straight edge can mean different things to different people right?
I've heard of people who put things into their own "personal" edge. Such as cutting, masturbating, swearing.. ect. Straight edge is about not participating in things that could damage your life in drastic ways, its about proving that you don't need to chemically enhance your brain to have fun. Its about making decisions that are smart, and right. About being CLEAN. Not the music. I don't listen to hardcore music. I'm not hardcore in the least. I'm here because I believe that I don't have to get high or drunk to be me, and because I believe that I'm making a good decision by not participating in these things.

I can be edge without being hardcore.
Cant I?

what defines straight edge and makes it unique from every other drug free movement throughout history?

[hardcoretta]

what defines straight edge and makes it unique from every other drug free movement throughout history?

Hardcore.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Why does it need to grow outside of hardcore? If it did spread to country or hiphop or other forms of rock that'd be awesome, but it would also be something new and not straight edge.

"Beliefs must evolve or face extinction." (J.R. Haynes, PxD)

I think it needs to grow outside of hardcore so anyone can benefit from being straight-edge.

What I'm getting from a lot of posts, not only this thread but others, is that sXe is a self-sustaining culture of conscious emptiness. It seems to be more about reputation and trends than an actual lifestyle, with the X tattoos on the hands. Which is inconsistent with the sole purpose of "sXe."

Wikipedia definition:
Straight edge (also known as sXe, and xXx) refers to a lifestyle, a personal commitment, a philosophy, and a subculture that is closely associated with hardcore punk music

How close is "closely related?" I think all underground music is closely related to hardcore punk because all underground music evolved from the "hardcore punk" lifestyle of veering from the mainstream media and becoming a self supporting musical genre.

I don't think anyone here has became "sXe" listening to music on the radio or television.

Anyone who supports the underground musical subculture because of a "Personal Commitment" is practicing the "sXe" lifestyle. Period. If you don't agree with this statement your claim to edge is false.

"sXe" is about developing a healthy and active lifestyle based around music by abstaining from addictive and mind altering substances in order to support the music, the artists of the music, it's all about the music.

Sure you can have a drug free and healthy lifestyle and buy $20 albums from BestBuy but you aren't gaining any connection with that music culture nor supporting the musical talent, more or less you are supporting the whole musical industry which is based solely around empty talent and capitalism.

[straightXed]

"Beliefs must evolve or face extinction." (J.R. Haynes, PxD)

I think it needs to grow outside of hardcore so anyone can benefit from being straight-edge.

Why can't they benifit from being drug free and leave straightedge in tack. I mean theres nothing wrong with taking influence from straightedge but stripping it down and still calling it the same thing isn't very imaginative


What I'm getting from a lot of posts, not only this thread but others, is that sXe is a self-sustaining culture of conscious emptiness. It seems to be more about reputation and trends than an actual lifestyle, with the X tattoos on the hands. Which is inconsistent with the sole purpose of "sXe."

Where are you getting concious emptiness from? Where are you getting it being all about reputation and how is it not about lifestyle. People are actively promoting the lifestyle of being straightedge which includes be active within hardcore and supporting a great genre that enbales everyone involved to be equals and contribute. I think that shows a great deal of substance instead of just saying you are straightedge and not actually being a part of what it is and the movement that surrounds it.


Wikipedia definition:
Straight edge (also known as sXe, and xXx) refers to a lifestyle, a personal commitment, a philosophy, and a subculture that is closely associated with hardcore punk music

wikipedia is a very unreliable source and shouldn't be taken as fact.


How close is "closely related?" I think all underground music is closely related to hardcore punk because all underground music evolved from the "hardcore punk" lifestyle of veering from the mainstream media and becoming a self supporting musical genre.

Not all underground music evolved from hardcore punk at all and for the record hardcore was more of a reaction to punk music. Lots of things veer from the mainstream but they are still quite different from the hardcore approach. There are enough differences to make a distinguishable difference in terms, sharing some simularities doesn't make it the same.


I don't think anyone here has became "sXe" listening to music on the radio or television.

We all start somewhere, a lot of people started listening to mainstream music and found more bands through that and eventually stumbled upon hardcore. I mean if all underground music came from punk then essentially it all came from mainstream music, but thats a nonsensical stretch really.


Anyone who supports the underground musical subculture because of a "Personal Commitment" is practicing the "sXe" lifestyle. Period. If you don't agree with this statement your claim to edge is false.

How is it false? And how can you say its false? How is techno promoting straightedge, what links to the history of straightedge are there? It really is just a huge stretch especially with the rich history hardcore provides for straightedge which you are quick to dissolve by saying anyone is straightedge without ever picking up a straightedge record or going to a straightedge show.


"sXe" is about developing a healthy and active lifestyle based around music by abstaining from addictive and mind altering substances in order to support the music, the artists of the music, it's all about the music.

Straightedge is all about a bunch of hardcore kids not doing drugs and participating in hardcore. Healthy and active lifestyle is very vauge, its all about hardcore but not just any music. Theres no reason that you have put forward that it should be representative of any other music, this isn't to say we should only listen to hardcore but we should appreciate that straightedge is a movement born from hardcore and that it really doesn't transcend in its complete manifestation to other genres. If you are intent in dropping elements in order to make it a broader term to cover more but essentially mean less then you are missing the point of underground and the ethics involved.


Sure you can have a drug free and healthy lifestyle and buy $20 albums from BestBuy but you aren't gaining any connection with that music culture nor supporting the musical talent, more or less you are supporting the whole musical industry which is based solely around empty talent and capitalism.

Ahh, so you are against capatalism? Is anyone in the mainstream automatically talentless? But alas you talk about connection, you really won't get a connection to straightedge going to underground raves or listening to underground jazz.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Why can't they benifit from being drug free and leave straightedge in tack. I mean theres nothing wrong with taking influence from straightedge but stripping it down and still calling it the same thing isn't very imaginative

How would a person benefitting from the sXe philosphy not be leaving straight edge intact? From your description of "stripping it down" you seem to be referring to anyone upholding straight edge ideals with a negative outlook. Straight edge is still the same thing whether or not it's affiliated strictly to hardcore. I don't understand why you would fail to support anyone who decided to be straight edge, that's a major turn off and a lack of support. Since when was straight edge about being musically fascist?


Where are you getting concious emptiness from? Where are you getting it being all about reputation and how is it not about lifestyle. People are actively promoting the lifestyle of being straightedge which includes be active within hardcore and supporting a great genre that enbales everyone involved to be equals and contribute. I think that shows a great deal of substance instead of just saying you are straightedge and not actually being a part of what it is and the movement that surrounds it.

Anything is easier said than done and collectively it's always much easier. Straight Edge is not a musical genre and I don't see why you continue to refer to it as one. A musical genre is desrcibed by certain traits and musical techniques, not the philsophy behind the indiviuals creating that music. And if the straight edge scene is litered with people who share your fascist outlook, how can it enable everyone to be involved as equals like you claim? Would a person actively participating in a mosh pit under the influence of alcohol be regaurded as an "equal?" I think not.

Once again, there is no "movement" to straight edge, you can fantasize all day about how you are going to change the the world, by being in a mosh pit, but it's not going to happen. Period. Straight Edge is a lifestyle and personal belief, nothing more. It's not a political party or collective attendance of fascist conciousness, it's a belief system for one's beneficial purposes. The only movement is in one's life.


wikipedia is a very unreliable source and shouldn't be taken as fact.

Please explain to me how Wikipedia is a "very unreliable source?" It's an online encyclopedia, sir, and encyclopedias document historical events if you hadn't noticed. Please type in any historical event you can recollect into Wikipedia and prove any of it's content is unfactual. More directly, prove to me how anything Wikipedia calims about edge is false.


Not all underground music evolved from hardcore punk at all and for the record hardcore was more of a reaction to punk music. Lots of things veer from the mainstream but they are still quite different from the hardcore approach. There are enough differences to make a distinguishable difference in terms, sharing some simularities doesn't make it the same.

No, but since this is a straight edge forum, I had assumed that the members would realize I am talking about underground music with participants claiming edge. I don't know of underground hip-hop participants claiming straight edge, so naturally, I wouldn't be talking of that genre of underground. I am taking about the genres of underground music that have shared the same venues as even bands that are hardcore. I'm not talking about all underground music. I'm sorry I was too vague for you, I'll remember not to make that mistake again. And I never said it evolved from hardcore punk (which I was referring to the time of the origin of punk when I called it hardcore, because in comparison to other music at the time, it truly was "hardcore."), I said it's closely related to it. And the underground music scene did evolve punk which evolved from the British Invasion which evolved from Skiffle bands which envolved from early 1920's rock and Nightclub jazz, and Vise Versa. We can even say Slayer has evolved from The Beatles, I don't care how you look at, and I'm not really too concerned about the chornological order of the evolution of underground music, I'm more concerned about straight edge and understanding why it can not stray from "Hardcore," in your opinion. And when I was talking about the relationship of the underground rock music scene to the "Punk" or "Hardcore Punk" scence I was talking about both of them being a self sustaining subculture of music. Bottom line.


We all start somewhere, a lot of people started listening to mainstream music and found more bands through that and eventually stumbled upon hardcore. I mean if all underground music came from punk then essentially it all came from mainstream music, but thats a nonsensical stretch really.

Musically, yes. Straight Edge, no. No-one initially becomes straight edge listening Nickelback. I never said "all underground came from punk" I said it's closely related in the fact it does not rely on agents and big record labels to guide them through their music career, because that's what defines "underground music," sir.


How is it false? And how can you say its false? How is techno promoting straightedge, what links to the history of straightedge are there? It really is just a huge stretch especially with the rich history hardcore provides for straightedge which you are quick to dissolve by saying anyone is straightedge without ever picking up a straightedge record or going to a straightedge show.

How can you claim edge if you don't believe in supporting the music and following through on a personal commitment of abstaince from substance abuse? Like I said, if you claim edge and neglect this belief as your own, you must be claiming edge for reputation purposes of some delusional kind. Having X tattoos doesn't make you straight edge, it's the philosphy behind it, not the symbol itself. Wearing an A surrounded by a circle on your t-shirt doesn't make you an anarchist, especially if you bought the t-shirt at a store and paid taxes on it.

How does music in general promote straight edge? And how do all hardcore bands promote sXe? I think the lyrical content is decided by the lyricist and what they feel, as music is a form of art, and art is a form of personal expression. It's not the genre of music that promotes anything other than emotions. Hardcore can promote the use of drug use just as quickly as not.

And I think it's a huge stretch for you to quickly discredit the direct support I (or anyone else) have given underground musical artists and the sobriety I have obtained under my own discretion.

I'm edge, whether I've picked up a "straight edge" album or I've been to a "striaght edge show." And I don't need someone across internet telling me I'm not.

And no, I have never been to an "edge show." I have gotten into shows without sporting the X on my hands or even taking a breathalizer test.


Straightedge is all about a bunch of hardcore kids not doing drugs and participating in hardcore. Healthy and active lifestyle is very vauge, its all about hardcore but not just any music. Theres no reason that you have put forward that it should be representative of any other music, this isn't to say we should only listen to hardcore but we should appreciate that straightedge is a movement born from hardcore and that it really doesn't transcend in its complete manifestation to other genres. If you are intent in dropping elements in order to make it a broader term to cover more but essentially mean less then you are missing the point of underground and the ethics involved.

"Beliefs must evolve or face extinction." Underground music whether it be, math, indie, grindcore, punk. metal or thrash, all share some elements with hardcore even if you fail to realize that, and that in itself is enough appreciation of harcore to represent edge. How are you going to preach to me about ethics of underground music? I have bought 12 albums in the past four months directly from the artists themselves, which is all my income will allow me. I don't download music either.


Ahh, so you are against capatalism? Is anyone in the mainstream automatically talentless? But alas you talk about connection, you really won't get a connection to straightedge going to underground raves or listening to underground jazz.

I never said I was against capatilism, only imperialistic capatilism. Relapse Records has adpated a capatlist method of trade, without it they would surely fall. Mainstream music isn't based on talent, but record sales, and we all know this. System of a Down is an extremely talented musical act, and they are mainstream.

But alas, you mis-interpret the context of my words. I never said a connection to straight edge, a connection to straight edge is within the individual and his/her bond with other edgers, not by going to a concert, connections and relationships in general are an upheld ideal in straight edge, and you can make connections and relationships with humans no matter what concert you go to. You can also buy records from merch tables at underground show, wcich is more connecting to the artists that , but you aren't going to connect with the musicians buying CDs from BestBuy.

But alas, you also fail to realize those who are deaf can also be straight edge. But that's a whole new subject for you.

I have decided that I don't need people across country telling me if I'm edge or not because I don't like their music, and for this reason, I am canceling my membership, and never coming back to the forums.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Hey.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

It's a pretty big accusation to call all of you delusional, but in this day and age, it's a pretty safe generalization.

To most of you it's a trend.

[PROPER JERK]

I think it needs to grow outside of hardcore so anyone can benefit from being straight-edge.

I don't think it needs to grow outside hardcore. Straight Edge is a philosophy that involves hardcore, it isn't straight edge without it. Straight Edge is also something that is very personal, you choose straight edge because of the impact hardcore has on you... the feelings it gives you and of course not everyone is going to feel that way or like hardcore. Some people might want to be drug free but it would be pretty stupid if there was people claiming edge or with x's on the back of their hands yet not listening to hardcore or being involved in hardcore. How are we delusional, how is it a trend to us?

[xsecx]

It's a pretty big accusation to call all of you delusional, but in this day and age, it's a pretty safe generalization.

To most of you it's a trend.

considering your introduction post stated you didn't even know anything about hardcore or straight edge bands, how are you in any position to pass judgment on what straight edge is or isn't?

[straightXed]

How would a person benefitting from the sXe philosphy not be leaving straight edge intact? From your description of "stripping it down" you seem to be referring to anyone upholding straight edge ideals with a negative outlook. Straight edge is still the same thing whether or not it's affiliated strictly to hardcore. I don't understand why you would fail to support anyone who decided to be straight edge, that's a major turn off and a lack of support. Since when was straight edge about being musically fascist?

Is hardly fascist to use accurate definitions, i'm not fascist about people being drug free but why would they need the term straightedge when that boils down to hardcore + being drug free. Straightedge isn't the same if you remove one of its defining elements. I'm not failing to support anyone, i think being free of drugs is a great thing, furthermore i am supportive in people accurately describing themselves. If you are removing hardcore then you are stripping it down so it no longer resembles straightedge.




Anything is easier said than done and collectively it's always much easier. Straight Edge is not a musical genre and I don't see why you continue to refer to it as one. A musical genre is desrcibed by certain traits and musical techniques, not the philsophy behind the indiviuals creating that music. And if the straight edge scene is litered with people who share your fascist outlook, how can it enable everyone to be involved as equals like you claim? Would a person actively participating in a mosh pit under the influence of alcohol be regaurded as an "equal?" I think not.


actually straightedge hardcore is a genre as it is defined and distinguished by its content and style which can be further broken down in to seperate sub genres but if we are to get that intricate it would help if you had some knowledge of what straightedge hardcore bands were. Again claiming my outlook is fascist doesn't make it so and you aren't actually explaining how it is fascist. How doesn't it enable people involved to be equal? Aside from the fact that the person drinking wouldn't be straightedge soit really isn't relative to the point in hand there are almost always people drinking at hardcore shows even straightedge hardcore shows. They are treated with equal respect for the large majority of the time so they would be regarded an equal in that sense but no they wouldn't be regarded as straightedge but what difference does that make?



Once again, there is no "movement" to straight edge, you can fantasize all day about how you are going to change the the world, by being in a mosh pit, but it's not going to happen. Period. Straight Edge is a lifestyle and personal belief, nothing more. It's not a political party or collective attendance of fascist conciousness, it's a belief system for one's beneficial purposes. The only movement is in one's life.

How is there no movement? who said anything about changing the world? The straightedge hardcore scene is the movement, it acheives its purpose by giving like minded people a place to share, its aim is to be able to exist on its own terms and be set aside from the bullshit as well as give everyone the oppertunity to actively participate on an equal level. The idea of huge bands playing on stage seemingly untouchable by the crowd is dismissed and we have established an approach that puts the bands and the crowds on the same level. Straightedge within hardcore has made a scene more accessable to younger kids, giving them something to be a part of. None of this is a fantasy and while it may not fit your idea of a movement it does fit the dictionary definition of movement, we have common goals and we work towards them, this has impacted worldwide. You can see it as no movement but it made a huge difference to the way things were and if you want to ignore that then go ahead.





Please explain to me how Wikipedia is a "very unreliable source?" It's an online encyclopedia, sir, and encyclopedias document historical events if you hadn't noticed. Please type in any historical event you can recollect into Wikipedia and prove any of it's content is unfactual. More directly, prove to me how anything Wikipedia calims about edge is false.

Because if you didn't know "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." thats is why it isn't reliable, i don't need to prove anything more.



No, but since this is a straight edge forum, I had assumed that the members would realize I am talking about underground music with participants claiming edge. I don't know of underground hip-hop participants claiming straight edge, so naturally, I wouldn't be talking of that genre of underground. I am taking about the genres of underground music that have shared the same venues as even bands that are hardcore. I'm not talking about all underground music. I'm sorry I was too vague for you, I'll remember not to make that mistake again.

There is a reason why the word "ass" appears in assumed. Its by no means natural toknow that you are unaware of underground hip hop so you weren't talking about that. That would require a level of mind reading. If you aren't talking about all underground music you would need to specify rather than just saying underground music. Appology accepted but please think before you type.




And I never said it evolved from hardcore punk (which I was referring to the time of the origin of punk when I called it hardcore, because in comparison to other music at the time, it truly was "hardcore."), I said it's closely related to it. And the underground music scene did evolve punk which evolved from the British Invasion which evolved from Skiffle bands which envolved from early 1920's rock and Nightclub jazz, and Vise Versa. We can even say Slayer has evolved from The Beatles, I don't care how you look at, and I'm not really too concerned about the chornological order of the evolution of underground music, I'm more concerned about straight edge and understanding why it can not stray from "Hardcore," in your opinion. And when I was talking about the relationship of the underground rock music scene to the "Punk" or "Hardcore Punk" scence I was talking about both of them being a self sustaining subculture of music. Bottom line.

If it strays from hardcore it loses a defining element, and becomes simply drug free, the term straightedge wouldn't accurately describe it any longer, it would be something new and a new term would describe it. For instance if it were drug free with in hip hop they may coin a term to describe that but as its describing something new it wouldn't be the term straightedge which already has an established definition which only really applies within the hardcore scene. Just like there is enough difference for hardcore not to be punk and punk not to be hardcore. If you look at exactly how the hardcore scene and straightedge has worked for the past 25+ years you will see why hardcore is a part of being straightedge. And whilst i think it would be great for everyone to be drug free of their own choice i don't think that watering down what straightedge means would have any chance of achieving that. People love to try and misuse the term straightedge for reasons of being cool or a funky way to label themselves but within hardcore it has a much stronger and profound meaning. Hardcore is a platform to address all things straightedge, people have worked very hard to establish this and we really don't want to see people just come along and co opt the term and change it to fit them as they see fit. I say to those people get some imagination and do your own work on making a term that fits what you are. Straightedge isn't just about drug free it is also about hardcore and that is a very very important element of it, if that seems fascist well its not, its like you wanting to reuse an artists work for your own ends, if you want to ignore or even defile an artists work by discarding a defining element than that doesn't make the artist a fascist when they become upset. We aren't a club that you aren't allowed to join but if you don't fit the definition of straightedge there is no reason for you to use the term or even want to when it doesn't fit. Bottom line.




Musically, yes. Straight Edge, no. No-one initially becomes straight edge listening Nickelback. I never said "all underground came from punk" I said it's closely related in the fact it does not rely on agents and big record labels to guide them through their music career, because that's what defines "underground music," sir.

Ummm, punk...EMI, BMG.




How can you claim edge if you don't believe in supporting the music and following through on a personal commitment of abstaince from substance abuse? Like I said, if you claim edge and neglect this belief as your own, you must be claiming edge for reputation purposes of some delusional kind. Having X tattoos doesn't make you straight edge, it's the philosphy behind it, not the symbol itself. Wearing an A surrounded by a circle on your t-shirt doesn't make you an anarchist, especially if you bought the t-shirt at a store and paid taxes on it.

Who said i don't support the music related to straightedge? I think you should re read what i wrote. And remember you posted underground music, not hardcore.


How does music in general promote straight edge? And how do all hardcore bands promote sXe? I think the lyrical content is decided by the lyricist and what they feel, as music is a form of art, and art is a form of personal expression. It's not the genre of music that promotes anything other than emotions. Hardcore can promote the use of drug use just as quickly as not.

Are you seriously asking how straightedge hardcore bands promote a straightedge message? Who said all hardcore bands promte straightedge? Lyrics are part of the music, straightedge hardcore tends to be rather generic as the lyrics tend to reinforce the thoughts of most the people, people are singing about what is happening in a scene that everyone is a part of. It could be singing about how people dance or raising issues of equality within the scene. Its simply a platform that anyone can get on to express themselves, so many bands come and go and its because its part of what makes hardcore vibrant rather than the same old tired singers talking about things that aren't really relative. Further more there are zines that promote messages and because anyone can get involved and book shows etc. you can express yourself by putting on a show with the bands that you feel best express what you wanna see in the scene. Sure some hardcore bands talk about doing drugs, whats your point?


And I think it's a huge stretch for you to quickly discredit the direct support I (or anyone else) have given underground musical artists and the sobriety I have obtained under my own discretion.

Where did i discredit it? What thread are you reading? I am not discrediting any support you have placed anywhere so please respond to what is written not what you want to respond to. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding due to your vagueness? But iwrote that supporting underground techno doesn't support straightedge, i wrote that its a ridiculous idea to think you are supporting straightedge if you are not attending straightedge shows or supporting straightedge bands etc. Again, think before you type.


I'm edge, whether I've picked up a "straight edge" album or I've been to a "striaght edge show." And I don't need someone across internet telling me I'm not.

Well regardless if you need it or not, you aren't straightedge if you aren't supporting straightedge hardcore. Perhaps you'd prefer people totell you that in person so i suggest seeking out your local straightedge hardcore scene. And try and think up a new term that describes you if you aren't into hardcore. Its not difficult, i mean you are associating yourself with straightedge hardcore and you've never even picked up a record, you realise how silly that is.


And no, I have never been to an "edge show." I have gotten into shows without sporting the X on my hands or even taking a breathalizer test.

Huh? is this a joke? Why would youneed a breathalizer test toget into a show?




"Beliefs must evolve or face extinction." Underground music whether it be, math, indie, grindcore, punk. metal or thrash, all share some elements with hardcore even if you fail to realize that, and that in itself is enough appreciation of harcore to represent edge. How are you going to preach to me about ethics of underground music? I have bought 12 albums in the past four months directly from the artists themselves, which is all my income will allow me. I don't download music either.

How do i fail to realise that when i have clearly stated that they share simularities but are not the same, you did read the things i wrote right? or did you just post in reply to things you wanted to reply to that weren't even there? You really don't get it do you, if i buy a bunch of underground hip hop artists records i am not supporting hardcore artists. I haven't once preached to you about your support of underground musicians but if you aren't supporting hardcore and straightedge hardcore then how are you supporting the straightedge scene which has given straightedge a place to live and evolve for the last 25+ years, you just want to use the term whilst everyone else does the hard work of keeping straightedge music around - yes straightedge music, thats hardcore music pertaining to and preformed by straightedge hardcore people. I don't care what records you buy but if you are using a term that is relevent to straightedge hardcore kids then those records should be supporting that. I mean if you think we are all a bunch of fascists then why associate with us and why use our terms todescribe yourself?




I never said I was against capatilism, only imperialistic capatilism. Relapse Records has adpated a capatlist method of trade, without it they would surely fall. Mainstream music isn't based on talent, but record sales, and we all know this. System of a Down is an extremely talented musical act, and they are mainstream.

I never said you were either, it was a question. Ok and perhaps talent helps make sales? I don't know what system of a down sounds like so i will have to take your word on it but talent comes in many ways, i mean musical technical ability often won't surpass the talent of showmanship, entertainment does take talent and as hideous as the music industry is they look for talent that they can market, it is based upon talent when you look at it objectively.


But alas, you mis-interpret the context of my words.

Because you are completely unclear in what you type.



I never said a connection to straight edge, a connection to straight edge is within the individual and his/her bond with other edgers, not by going to a concert, connections and relationships in general are an upheld ideal in straight edge, and you can make connections and relationships with humans no matter what concert you go to. You can also buy records from merch tables at underground show, wcich is more connecting to the artists that , but you aren't going to connect with the musicians buying CDs from BestBuy.

The point is you were talking about music that isn't related to straightedge, you won't get a connection to what the reality of straightedge is without actually going to where straightedge lives and exists as a movement. You can talk to other drug free people and connect to them but to connect to straightedge you need to go where straightedge people go and where straightedge exists, that is within the hardcore scene.


But alas, you also fail to realize those who are deaf can also be straight edge. But that's a whole new subject for you.

Those who are deaf can also go to straightedge shows, theres a deaf drummer that supports the local scene here, and he is into it more than most. Its not a new subject for me, thats you making ASSumptions again.


I have decided that I don't need people across country telling me if I'm edge or not because I don't like their music, and for this reason, I am canceling my membership, and never coming back to the forums.

Ok, perhaps you will think about the fact that whilst you call yourself straightedge you disagree with the consensus of what straightedge people think. Also that you call yourself something which you do not actively participate in and don't support those that do. Its great to know that you are so quick to turn your back on a discussion when what is written doesn't fit your pre conceived ideas, instead of actually sticking around to learn about a scene and movement you obviously know little about. I can only hope you either quit calling yourself something you don't support or agree with or that you actually decide to learn about it. you are the one who keeps mentioning beliefs needing to evolve yet you are so very against leeting yours evolve by interacting with the straightedge people here who can offer a lot of help. I don't think you can cancel your membership and even though you say you won't be back i am pretty sure you will be and i'm pretty sure you will post here again, if i am wrong i am wrong but i think you'll reply. When you do, think about what you say first.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

If you are removing hardcore then you are stripping it down so it no longer resembles straightedge.

I'm sorry sir, what exactly is your definition of hardcore, because I'm under the impression hardcore music are bands like "Terror."

And you know what, I don't get don't with that pussy metal. Terror is weak. And Hatebreed. Generic metal bands with chugga chugga breakdowns for tough guys in tattoos to dance to.

Let me ask you this:

As long as there is an underground scene "with a mosh pit," and you support it, are you not straight edge by definition ((of your opinion because there doesn't seem to be any literature of a sXe bible lying around)(of course in conjunction to that, this person would be remaining free of life-draining and impairing substances))?


Again claiming my outlook is fascist doesn't make it so and you aren't actually explaining how it is fascist.

Let me put this in terms you will understand, you've heard of Limp Bizkit "hardcore?"

The "It's my way or the highway," type of mentality is what makes you fascist.

Once again, "Beliefs must evolve or face extinction."


How is there no movement? who said anything about changing the world? The straightedge hardcore scene is the movement, it acheives its purpose by giving like minded people a place to share, its aim is to be able to exist on its own terms and be set aside from the bullshit as well as give everyone the oppertunity to actively participate on an equal level. The idea of huge bands playing on stage seemingly untouchable by the crowd is dismissed and we have established an approach that puts the bands and the crowds on the same level. Straightedge within hardcore has made a scene more accessable to younger kids, giving them something to be a part of.

This, I agree with you totally, except for this movement hasn't remain strictly to hardcore, it's also very apparent in the underground indie music scene as well.


Because if you didn't know "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." thats is why it isn't reliable, i don't need to prove anything more.

You've made a claim, and I was just asking you to back that up with evidence.

Is there anything on the Wikipedia page in reference to "sXe" that you disagree to be fact, and if so, how is it not fact?


There is a reason why the word "ass" appears in assumed. Its by no means natural toknow that you are unaware of underground hip hop so you weren't talking about that. That would require a level of mind reading. If you aren't talking about all underground music you would need to specify rather than just saying underground music. Appology accepted but please think before you type.

Thanks for accepting my apology, man. Need to respect each other.


If it strays from hardcore it loses a defining element, and becomes simply drug free

No, sir, I didn't say anyone abstaining from drugs is "sXe." I said anyone drug-free and supporting underground music is participating in "sXe" practices and beliefs.


For instance if it were drug free with in hip hop they may coin a term to describe that but as its describing something new it wouldn't be the term straightedge which already has an established definition which only really applies within the hardcore scene.

You are asking someone to label themselves differently than "sXe" because of a genre of music, which is totally ridiculous.

There is no need to make a new term up of for each time someone decides to practice "sXe" but doesn't like hardcore. It's ridiculous and it separates people only by a label a few letters and symbols. If you think "straight edge" is such a radical and cool term and you want it only to apply to your genre of music, that's fine, but the reality of it is that it doesn't. Indie kids have already adapted "sXe" and I have too.

And for the record, sir, "Straight edge" doesn't even sound that cool, it sounds conservative and corny.


People love to try and misuse the term straightedge for reasons of being cool or a funky way to label themselves but within hardcore it has a much stronger and profound meaning.

That is the fascist mentality I'm talking about.

Who are you to decide if a "sXe" lifestyle has a more "profound" meaning for "hardcore kids" than it doesn't "indie kids?"

The meaning can be just as strong and profound for anyone regaurdless of "hardcore."

Say, perchance, that "sXe" did evolve from rap music, and hardcore kids starting adapting "sXe" would it be any less "profound" now that the hardcore kids have choosen "sXe?"


I say to those people get some imagination and do your own work on making a term that fits what you are.

I have last night, a less fascist way of life, and until then I'm going to use the term "sXe" because that is the term people are familar with.


if you don't fit the definition of straightedge there is no reason for you to use the term or even want to when it doesn't fit. Bottom line.

Since when was opinion definition?


Ummm, punk...EMI, BMG.

Piss to that.


Lyrics are part of the music, straightedge hardcore tends to be rather generic as the lyrics tend to reinforce the thoughts of most the people, people are singing about what is happening in a scene that everyone is a part of.

Hahahaha. That is generic and cheesy as hell, and uncreative. Singing about staying free off drugs barely represents creative emotion as the best artwork is made through pain. The bands I listen to have lyrics with actually meaning, even if it's political or just about plain social inadequacies.

"Tighten the tie, lengthen the leg, suck on the shit, scramble the egg. Shed that old skin for some feathers. As noses bleed, trumpets are trumpeting, noses are bleeding. Triumphant cattle mutilations. That damn Saint Nick with chocolate-flavored razor blades."

Real art is open to interpretation, however, an anti-drug commercial is not...


Further more there are zines that promote messages and because anyone can get involved and book shows etc. you can express yourself by putting on a show with the bands that you feel best express what you wanna see in the scene.

Furthermore, this has been done for decades, it's not just a straight edge quality...


Perhaps this is a misunderstanding due to your vagueness?

Perhaps...


But iwrote that supporting underground techno doesn't support straightedge, i wrote that its a ridiculous idea to think you are supporting straightedge if you are not attending straightedge shows or supporting straightedge bands etc.

Again, you fail to realize "sXe" isn't a multi million dollar corporation or even a charity organization you can support.

"sXe" is a personal belief system that hopefully supports itself...


And try and think up a new term that describes you if you aren't into hardcore.

How about a music enthusiast? Is that term relevant enough to describe me?


Huh? is this a joke? Why would youneed a breathalizer test toget into a show?

Yes, it was a joke.


You really don't get it do you, if i buy a bunch of underground hip hop artists records i am not supporting hardcore artists.

Only naturally...


you just want to use the term whilst everyone else does the hard work of keeping straightedge music around

No, I'll use the term whether or not "sXe" music stays around. And I didn't know it was such hard work to be a fan of music.


I don't care what records you buy but if you are using a term that is relevent to straightedge hardcore kids then those records should be supporting that.

Are you saying I need to listen to records whose lyrics support being "Drug free" to be "sXe?"

I think I get more support to continue my "sXe" lifestyle from lyrics that sing about using drugs, because I have been through a tough time in my life because of my drug use, and lyrics that sing or even promote drug use is an ugly reminder of my past, and I feel more connection to that music and to my current beliefs.


I mean if you think we are all a bunch of fascists then why associate with us and why use our terms todescribe yourself?

Hahaha. You would like me to associate myself with you, wouldn't you?

I'm not associating my self with you!

I'm associating myself with the plenty of "sXe" people in my community who stray from hardcore music and coin the term "straight edge."


I don't know what system of a down sounds like

What!?! Pick yourself up the self-titled, or "Toxicity."


Because you are completely unclear in what you type.

Maybe so, but it could also be that you are completely unclear in what I type.


You can talk to other drug free people and connect to them but to connect to straightedge you need to go where straightedge people go and where straightedge exists, that is within the hardcore scene.

But not limited to.


Those who are deaf can also go to straightedge shows, theres a deaf drummer that supports the local scene here, and he is into it more than most. Its not a new subject for me, thats you making ASSumptions again.

Is it safe for me to ASSume you're 13 years old?


Ok, perhaps you will think about the fact that whilst you call yourself straightedge you disagree with the consensus of what straightedge people think.

Grand Rapids underground self proclaimed "sXe" consensus is "Be drug free, and go to shows."


Also that you call yourself something which you do not actively participate in and don't support those that do.

And if I'm going to shows, and getting in the mosh pit, (which more than half in attendance do not, Mainly the emo haircuts and studded belts stand there with their arms crossed, tapping their foot) how is that not "active participation?

Are we assuming, again...?


you are the one who keeps mentioning beliefs needing to evolve yet you are so very against leeting yours evolve by interacting with the straightedge people here who can offer a lot of help. I don't think you can cancel your membership and even though you say you won't be back i am pretty sure you will be and i'm pretty sure you will post here again, if i am wrong i am wrong but i think you'll reply. When you do, think about what you say first.

Okay sir, I'm back again because I enjoy debating but not insulting. I hope we both recognize and harness this approach to conversing, I don't want this turn into a french kiss of shear tongues.

I will come back, because I want the support, I just don't understand how you are supportive when you claim I'm not "sXe" because of this and that.

And I have also made claims of people using "sXe" as a trend, so I realize I'm guilty as well, and I'll apologize once again, because "sXe" isn't a sect or a denomination, it's a personal lifestyle and I'll respect and assume everyone here at these forums is doing their part in being "as edge as possible."

God damn, typing this book gets tiring fast and hurts my eyeballs. We need to reach some closure on this issue soon or I'm going to melt.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

considering your introduction post stated you didn't even know anything about hardcore or straight edge bands, how are you in any position to pass judgment on what straight edge is or isn't?

Just because I don't know anything about the specifics of your music, Dusty, doesn't mean I don't know about the choices I am making which pertain to a "sXe" lifestyle.

However I do know about certain choices others openly flaunt...

Theres plenty of people sucking on a nicotine cock and still blindly claim "sXe."

I also know many people who "claim" edge think it's cool to beat people up, which isn't edge, that's just called being an a**hole.

Which I only "pass judgment" upon because action contradicts words.

For the record, Straight Edge is not about male dominance, which is a very prominent assumption within the "sXe" community.

[rodrigo]

Just because I don't know anything about the specifics of your music, Dusty, doesn't mean I don't know about the choices I am making which pertain to a "sXe" lifestyle.

but sxe is a part of hardcore, you know about the choices of being drug free. seems to me you just like how the name "straight edge" sounds and like being drug free, but have no understanding of what sxe is, because you are not inside the hardcore scene and apparently never been.



For the record, Straight Edge is not about male dominance, which is a very prominent assumption within the "sXe" community.

who assumes that?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

but sxe is a part of hardcore, you know about the choices of being drug free. seems to me you just like how the name "straight edge" sounds and like being drug free, but have no understanding of what sxe is, because you are not inside the hardcore scene and apparently never been.

"sXe" is not a part of hardcore. Hardcore is a genre, and "sXe" is a belief.

I actually think "sXe" sounds cheesy, but I'm not going to call it "xSLICExEDGExCOREx" when that isn't what it's called.

I actually care more about the lifestyle of being "sXe" then the actually pronunciation of the vowels and constants.

I do like being drug free, correct, sir.

Why would I be in the hardcore scene if I don't even like hardcore music?

I like math and grindcore.


who assumes that?

Lots of sad, sad "edge" people, unfortunately.

[rodrigo]

"sXe" is not a part of hardcore. Hardcore is a genre, and "sXe" is a belief.

I actually think "sXe" sounds cheesy, but I'm not going to call it "xSLICExEDGExCOREx" when that isn't what it's called.

I actually care more about the lifestyle of being "sXe" then the actually pronunciation of the vowels and constants.

I do like being drug free, correct, sir.

Why would I be in the hardcore scene if I don't even like hardcore music?

I like math and grindcore.



Lots of sad, sad "edge" people, unfortunately.
see, thats the part you dont want to understand. sxe it is a part of hardcore and if you take hardcore away, its just being drug free. and if you dont like hardcore, and are not in the hardcore scene you are not straight edge. you are just twisting the meaning of straight edge at your own will so it can fit you, with no back up information or a reliable foundation.
if you want to start a new term for being drug free in another scene its okay, but dont call it straight edge. be original.
i havent met anybody who says that where i've lived or here on the message board, except for a couple of kids that werent even straight edge. anyway seing that you dont really know what straight edge is (and apparently dont want to learn) you are just probably talking out of your ass or talking about kids that are not really straight edge...

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

see, thats the part you dont want to understand. sxe it is a part of hardcore and if you take hardcore away, its just being drug free.

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.

[straightXed]

I'm sorry sir, what exactly is your definition of hardcore, because I'm under the impression hardcore music are bands like "Terror."

Perhaps you should spend more time reading the threads here before quickly reacting. I personally don't consider terror a hardcore band.


And you know what, I don't get don't with that pussy metal. Terror is weak. And Hatebreed. Generic metal bands with chugga chugga breakdowns for tough guys in tattoos to dance to.

thats nice.


Let me ask you this:

As long as there is an underground scene "with a mosh pit," and you support it, are you not straight edge by definition ((of your opinion because there doesn't seem to be any literature of a sXe bible lying around)(of course in conjunction to that, this person would be remaining free of life-draining and impairing substances))?

ummm, no and underground scene can be anything, straightedge is relative to the hardcore scene.




Let me put this in terms you will understand, you've heard of Limp Bizkit "hardcore?"

i've heard of them but they aren't a hardcore band.


The "It's my way or the highway," type of mentality is what makes you fascist.

Not at all, its the way it is, you can call a cat a dog all day long and consider me a fascist for calling it a cat still but it doesn't make it so. You still are failing to point to any reasonable conclusion of it being fascist.


Once again, "Beliefs must evolve or face extinction."

It has evolved but it doesn't evolve on your say so or on your terms.




This, I agree with you totally, except for this movement hasn't remain strictly to hardcore, it's also very apparent in the underground indie music scene as well.

Show evidence of this, lyrics pertaining to straightedge, a history of straightedge within that scene.




You've made a claim, and I was just asking you to back that up with evidence.

That is evidence, how can you rely on it as anyone can go and change what is written there. And people often edit that page. The claim stands that it is an unreliable source.


Is there anything on the Wikipedia page in reference to "sXe" that you disagree to be fact, and if so, how is it not fact?

There have been things on that page that aren't factual but i am not about to go through the page as it really isn't relative. The point is you used it thinking it was a strong encyclopeadic reference point but it isn't.




Thanks for accepting my apology, man. Need to respect each other.

Well you wouldn't need to appologise if you thought things through more.




No, sir, I didn't say anyone abstaining from drugs is "sXe." I said anyone drug-free and supporting underground music is participating in "sXe" practices and beliefs. Which is not true, it pertains to hardcore not any underground music. Remember underground covers hip hop, electro, jazz, techno etc. - the music relevent to straightedge is hardcore and the only resoning you seem to be able to give that ut should be otherwise is to suit you.




You are asking someone to label themselves differently than "sXe" because of a genre of music, which is totally ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? Its easy to say it is ridiculous but why? sxe is drug free + hardcore, if you take away the hardcore you no longer have straightedge, you simply have drug free + another musical genre (assuming that genre promotes and reflects a drug free message.) What is ridiculous is calling yourself straightedge when you have no links to hardcore and thus no links to the history or current state of straightedge. Earlier you said it was all about the music now you are acting as if it has no bearing at all. If a bunch of ravers are taking drugs and promoting an anarchic lifestyle you don't call them punks, the music is really quite definitive.


There is no need to make a new term up of for each time someone decides to practice "sXe" but doesn't like hardcore. It's ridiculous and it separates people only by a label a few letters and symbols. If you think "straight edge" is such a radical and cool term and you want it only to apply to your genre of music, that's fine, but the reality of it is that it doesn't. Indie kids have already adapted "sXe" and I have too.

How unoriginal of you but you have yet to provide sufficiant evidence of a sxe movement within indie music. Point is they are simply co opting a term from hardcore and actually not supporting tha hardcore values that go along with that as well as being ignorant to the history of what they are claiming to be. I would say indie + drug free would be different enough in attitude and execution to be called something different.


And for the record, sir, "Straight edge" doesn't even sound that cool, it sounds conservative and corny.

Then it begs the question why don't you think up something that you think would be cooler, however lots of people do adopt 'x's' because they look cool instead of because of what they resemble and mean.




That is the fascist mentality I'm talking about.

Thats fascist how? You throw that term around in a rather insulting manner with no basis and you should really learn to use it when it is relevent instead of calling everything you disagree with fascist, its really dull and child like.


Who are you to decide if a "sXe" lifestyle has a more "profound" meaning for "hardcore kids" than it doesn't "indie kids?"

Well seeing as you have yet toeven display any evidence of straightedge in indie, and looking at just how straightedge has come around i'd say its completely evident that the profound meaning is found within hardcore. I mean straightedge is synonamous with hardcore whilst indies is synonamous with looking at your shoes.


The meaning can be just as strong and profound for anyone regaurdless of "hardcore."

Except the meaning for all those others willl be negating the history and the struggle of the whole movement so not really as profound at all. JUst bandwaggon jumpers.


Say, perchance, that "sXe" did evolve from rap music, and hardcore kids starting adapting "sXe" would it be any less "profound" now that the hardcore kids have choosen "sXe?"

if it was a hip hop thing and its history was all based in hip hop then hardcore kids should look todoing there own original thing instead of just jumping on what hip hop kids do, like i said earlier this doesn't mean being influenced by one genre is a bad thing but recognise the differences and distinguish between them or end up with terms that don't accurately define anything.




I have last night, a less fascist way of life, and until then I'm going to use the term "sXe" because that is the term people are familar with.

So you need people to be familiar with it because then the term is descriptive. Problem comes from when you omitt hardcore from your description, now you will come across people and they will rightly assume that you are involved in hardcore due to the label you use todescribe you.




Since when was opinion definition?

says the kid relying on wikipedia! Besides you aren't arguing with my opinion you are arguing with the history of straightedge.




Piss to that.

ooo, solid point, well raised!




Hahahaha. That is generic and cheesy as hell, and uncreative. Singing about staying free off drugs barely represents creative emotion as the best artwork is made through pain. The bands I listen to have lyrics with actually meaning, even if it's political or just about plain social inadequacies.

Ok so you don't like the music associated with straightedge. the music that made straightedge what it is yet you still want to be called straightedge and associate with that. That is moronic. If you think this scene that created straightedge has no meaning then really why are you associating with that?




"Tighten the tie, lengthen the leg, suck on the shit, scramble the egg. Shed that old skin for some feathers. As noses bleed, trumpets are trumpeting, noses are bleeding. Triumphant cattle mutilations. That damn Saint Nick with chocolate-flavored razor blades."

ummm, yeah.


Real art is open to interpretation, however, an anti-drug commercial is not...

Your point is?




Furthermore, this has been done for decades, it's not just a straight edge quality...

Straightedge has been around for decades but if you took the time to read we are talking about the hardcore scene in particular and they way things are done there.




Perhaps...

no perhaps about it.




Again, you fail to realize "sXe" isn't a multi million dollar corporation or even a charity organization you can support.

Ummm people have been supporting it for years and thats the only reason you have even heardof it today, you seriously think without the support of everyone involved it would still be around?


"sXe" is a personal belief system that hopefully supports itself...

Its great how people are quick to cheapen the whole thing and ignore what actually happened in order to see straightedge exist today. It is a sub culture that one becomes an active part of not something people just use to define themselves however they see fit.




How about a music enthusiast? Is that term relevant enough to describe me?

Doesn't really set you apart from other music enthusiasts in order to depict the drug free aspect.




Yes, it was a joke.

right.




Only naturally...

So you aren't supporting straightedge.




No, I'll use the term whether or not "sXe" music stays around. And I didn't know it was such hard work to be a fan of music.

its really not hard work for the rest of us but then we don't call our selves something we aren't.




Are you saying I need to listen to records whose lyrics support being "Drug free" to be "sXe?"

I'm saying you need to listen
straightedge hardcore records in order to be actively a part of straightedge and what it really is.



I think I get more support to continue my "sXe" lifestyle from lyrics that sing about using drugs, because I have been through a tough time in my life because of my drug use, and lyrics that sing or even promote drug use is an ugly reminder of my past, and I feel more connection to that music and to my current beliefs.

Thats great but its not supporting straightedge.




Hahaha. You would like me to associate myself with you, wouldn't you?

If you were actually straightedge i wouldn't mind but you aren't.


I'm not associating my self with you!

Well then you shouldn't associate yourself with straightedge then.


I'm associating myself with the plenty of "sXe" people in my community who stray from hardcore music and coin the term "straight edge."

They aren't straightedge kid.




What!?! Pick yourself up the self-titled, or "Toxicity."

No thanks idon't like mainstream stuff!




Maybe so, but it could also be that you are completely unclear in what I type.

Nope, its you.




But not limited to.

Yes, limited to.




Is it safe for me to ASSume you're 13 years old?

Not really, it would be safer for you to actually look at my profile and not actually assume my age when you don't need to.




Grand Rapids underground self proclaimed "sXe" consensus is "Be drug free, and go to shows."

they probably mean straightedge and hardcore shows.




And if I'm going to shows, and getting in the mosh pit, (which more than half in attendance do not, Mainly the emo haircuts and studded belts stand there with their arms crossed, tapping their foot) how is that not "active participation?

Being there is active participation, thats showing support by showing up. You aren't smart are you.


Are we assuming, again...?

No, its based on your commentry.




Okay sir, I'm back again because I enjoy debating but not insulting. I hope we both recognize and harness this approach to conversing, I don't want this turn into a french kiss of shear tongues.

Well then stop being a silly and calling people fascist then without actually showing any fascist element.


I will come back, because I want the support, I just don't understand how you are supportive when you claim I'm not "sXe" because of this and that.

You are back because i enticed you back. I am supportive of straightedge and believe it or not we don't actually want the term to just be a catch all term instead of relating to what it actually is.


And I have also made claims of people using "sXe" as a trend, so I realize I'm guilty as well, and I'll apologize once again, because "sXe" isn't a sect or a denomination, it's a personal lifestyle and I'll respect and assume everyone here at these forums is doing their part in being "as edge as possible."

Everyone here supprts hardcore straightedge, thats the reason for these forums being here.


God damn, typing this book gets tiring fast and hurts my eyeballs. We need to reach some closure on this issue soon or I'm going to melt.

what kind of closure are you expecting, research the forums because i seriously think you are barking up the wrong tree.

[straightXed]

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.

See you don't even know what hardcore is! If you aren't supporting straightedge hardcore you aren't supporting straightedge.Being in a mosh pit doesn't matter but you didn't even know what sing alongs, pile ons and spin kicks were about. sure you are a part of some music but its not the music relative to straightedge.

[rodrigo]

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.
yeah but no hardcore. so no sxe.

and whats all this about breakdowns?
you also have a wrong idea of hardcore music.
and dont call me a"sucka" and talk to me about what is weak or not.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Open your minds, people.

[rodrigo]

Open your minds, people.
by you refusing to see others people vision, and actually most people's and socio-historic vision, are being close minded...

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Perhaps you should spend more time reading the threads here before quickly reacting. I personally don't consider terror a hardcore band.

I don't care what you personally think.

Straight Edge just isn't about you.

Terror identifies itself as hardcore, so obviously, they are.

This conversation will go nowhere if we don't agree first on what is hardcore.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Is HeWhoCorrupts hardcore?

Their website claims they are.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Because I'm going to go to a HWC concert, so then I must be "sXe."

Right?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

...Right?

[rodrigo]

who knows, never heard of them.
and no, going to one show doesnt make you a part of hardcore

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Who should know if HWC is hardcore?

You should since, you are the hardcore/straight edge relations guru.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

What makes a band hardcore?

I go to shows all the time.

Most of them are considered grindcore, but I'm sure some of them consider themselves "hardcore," if you want me to count the number of shows I went to with bands who consider themselves "hardcore," I can do that for you.

Because it really matters to me if you think I'm Straight Edge.

It really does.

) :

[rodrigo]

im a guru?
awesome.
i could tell you, but seeing that im not from the usa, i dont know about everyband in there.

thanks for the compliment anyway

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

What is HARDcore?

[straightXed]

I don't care what you personally think.

Straight Edge just isn't about you.

I never said it was, there you go again reading things that weren't written.


Terror identifies itself as hardcore, so obviously, they are.

This conversation will go nowhere if we don't agree first on what is hardcore.

Well no, thats not obvious at all, just because a band says calls themselves something doesn't make it so. However i did say it was a personal consideration that they weren't really hardcore and that is based on their attitude and sound. i know a lot of hardcore kids like them but its not for me. I prefer verse, go it alone, ten yard fight, speak 714, the first step, youth crew stuff and old school stuff. I tend to not like to much metal influence, i like straight up hardcore. And straight up hardcore is what hardcore is but i'm sure youwill disagree.

[straightXed]

Because I'm going to go to a HWC concert, so then I must be "sXe."

Right?

Are they a straightedge band then?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

just because a band says calls themselves something doesn't make it so.

What makes a band hardcore?

[straightXed]

What makes a band hardcore?

its sound, content and ethic.

[straightXed]

im a guru?
awesome.
i could tell you, but seeing that im not from the usa, i dont know about everyband in there.

thanks for the compliment anyway

You are a guru.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

its sound, content and ethic.

Like you couldn't have said that about any other genre.

Thanks for being so descriptive.

I didn't ask "What defines a musical genre?"

I asked: "What defines the "hardcore" musical genre?"

I'm trying to get to the core of what can make a person "edge" as you claim, but I don't see any definition of what is that core.

It's like you can't really tell me what is hardcore by running around and neglecting the question.

It's fucking ridiculous. Just answer that question.

Or maybe you need sometime between posts to find some hardcore bands on the interweb?

[PROPER JERK]

Why can't you see the definitions we have stated over and over?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that straight edge was born from hardcore, why cant you see that we are telling you over and over straight edge involves hardcore... WITHOUT THE MUSIC IT IS JUST DRUG FREE.

Why is it so hard to figure out what hardcore is, look around this site there are several lists of great hardcore bands. If you don't like hardcore, why the fuck do you want to be straight edge? If you don't like any of us and think we are dillusional then why do you want to claim something we are a part of?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Dude, is HeWhoCorrupts hardcore?

Is Pheonix Bodies hardcore?

How will I know if I'm straight edge if I don't know the bands I am supporting are hardcore or not?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

look around this site there are several lists of great hardcore bands.

HEY MOTHER FUCKER.

MAYBE THOSE SHITTY BANDS AREN'T THE ONLY HARDCORE BANDS IN THE WORLD.

Just because I don't like your shitty hardcore doesn't mean my shit aint hardcore.

Just because I don't like your shitty hardcore doesn't mean my shit aint hardcore.

Just because I don't like your shitty hardcore doesn't mean my shit aint hardcore.

Just because I don't like your shitty hardcore doesn't mean my shit aint hardcore.

Just because I don't like your shitty hardcore doesn't mean my shit aint hardcore.

[PROPER JERK]

oh yeh that he who corrupts isnt hardcore.

[PROPER JERK]

HEY MOTHER FUCKER.

HEY!

[rodrigo]

HEY!
what a rude little guy, aint he?

its funny that there is a list that is huge and has over 10 pages of sxe bands...

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

oh yeh that he who corrupts isnt hardcore.

Why not?

Why exactly makes HeWhoCorrupts not hardcore? What does it lack?

You don't seem to want to educate me on what exactly makes a band hardcore.

It seems you just want to tell me I have to listen the genre but you can't tell me the musical properties of the genre.

You don't seem to want to educate me on what exactly makes a band hardcore.

It seems you just want to tell me I have to listen the genre but you can't tell me the musical properties of the genre.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

[PROPER JERK]

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

Explain mathcore to us please.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Fuck you.

Off topic again.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Mathcore is usually a heavy genre of thrash (thrash is a combination of metal and punk elements, which can include power cords, bar chords, tremelos, the drums can include blast beats, double kicks, and drum rolls), combining elements of extreme and eradtic tempo changes, a boatload of time signatures from each instrument, also instead of playing music in sets of fours, the pattern of sounds in Mathcore usually follow odd numbers.

Such as 3s.

1s.

And maybe even

5s.

Now tell me what the fucking gay hardcore is.

You know what, I don't care anymore.

It's not as good of a drug as mathcore.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

I will once you explain to me what hardcore is.

Math can fall under any genre but it is most pleasing to the ear in the thrash genre, which would make Math MATHCORE.

Thrash is a combination of punk and metal elements, which can include, power and/or bar chords and/or termelos, double kicks, blast beats, and drum rolls.

Mathcore has many eratic and even hesitant tempo changes, there is a boatload of time signatures from each instrument which accompany musical patterns in sets of odd and uneven numbers, such as 1, 3,

and maybe even 5.

Hey, atleast I know how to fucking describe the genre of music I listen to, which is what all of you who claim "hardcore" is "Edge" fail to do.

[D1988]

Copy AND Paste!

GO!

[straightXed]

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

No one is helping me to know what exactly makes that 10 page list of bands hardcore.

Because whatever makes those bands hardcore makes another.

You don't really endear people to the idea of helping you.

[straightXed]

Like you couldn't have said that about any other genre.

Thanks for being so descriptive.

I didn't ask "What defines a musical genre?"

I asked: "What defines the "hardcore" musical genre?"

I'm trying to get to the core of what can make a person "edge" as you claim, but I don't see any definition of what is that core.

It's like you can't really tell me what is hardcore by running around and neglecting the question.

It's fucking ridiculous. Just answer that question.

Or maybe you need sometime between posts to find some hardcore bands on the interweb?

I answered the question, if you would like me to go further into what sound, content and ethic then perhaps you should inspire me to want to discuss things with you. Heres what i suggest, go and listen to suggested bands from the master list thread and then figure it out. If any genuine non facetious questions remain and you post them without comming off as a complete tit then i'm sure people will be happy to help. But as it stands you just seem to be trying to stamp your feet and kick up a stink.

[xCrucialDudex]

Straightedge isn't the same if you remove one of its defining elements.

If Straight Edge is comprised of defining elements this implies there's a definition for Straight Edge, right? If there's a definition someone is responsible for its creation. First, who defined what Straight Edge is and/or is not? Second, what is the Straight Edge according to the definition?


The straightedge hardcore scene is the movement, it acheives its purpose by giving like minded people a place to share, its aim is to be able to exist on its own terms and be set aside from the bullshit as well as give everyone the oppertunity to actively participate on an equal level.

Do you speak for yourself or is this the definition for Straight Edge?
And what is "bullshit" anyway? In previous posts you talked about accuracy of descriptions, vagueness and that people need to specify what they type. Don't you think that telling someone that Straight Edge as a movement aims to "be set aside from the bullshit" isn't too vague for understanding? What did you mean to say?


Ok, perhaps you will think about the fact that whilst you call yourself straightedge you disagree with the consensus of what straightedge people think.

Are you seriously talking for all of the straight edge people from all over the world? I mean, how can you know exactly what other people think unless you made some sort of poll and fixed the results on paper with accompanying endorsement of those interviewed? The consensus you talk about is pretty amorphous and that's the great problem, in my opinion. What is this consensus? Can you reproduce it verbatim and make me or anyone else in here sure that all of the straight edge people support these ideas? Can you?


sxe is drug free + hardcore

Just hardcore or straight edge hardcore? Or both possible?

[straightXed]

If Straight Edge is comprised of defining elements this implies there's a definition for Straight Edge, right? If there's a definition someone is responsible for its creation. First, who defined what Straight Edge is and/or is not? Second, what is the Straight Edge according to the definition?

Why does it have to be one person? It wasn't one person it was and is a bunch of people and it is continually defined through their actions and their words.




Do you speak for yourself or is this the definition for Straight Edge?
And what is "bullshit" anyway? In previous posts you talked about accuracy of descriptions, vagueness and that people need to specify what they type. Don't you think that telling someone that Straight Edge as a movement aims to "be set aside from the bullshit" isn't too vague for understanding? What did you mean to say?

How is it not definitive of straightedge?

I don't think its vague in the context of the discussion, but if you are looking for examples then look at the way other genres focus on major sales and popularity and don't focus on equality for everyone involved. Hell just listen to new direction, that refers to the same kind of bullshit i refer to.




Are you seriously talking for all of the straight edge people from all over the world? I mean, how can you know exactly what other people think unless you made some sort of poll and fixed the results on paper with accompanying endorsement of those interviewed? The consensus you talk about is pretty amorphous and that's the great problem, in my opinion. What is this consensus? Can you reproduce it verbatim and make me or anyone else in here sure that all of the straight edge people support these ideas? Can you?

Ok would you agree that straightedge music is representative of when people within the straightedge movement think? I mean in terms of straightedge not in terms of sharing the same thoughts on the economy. Theres a pretty definitive line of thought that is quite apparent throughout the scene, throughout the world. Theres a lot of stuff which changes from place to place but throughtout the hardcore scene worldwide there is some pretty definitive ideas of straightedge, this is continually represented and supported largely without contest throughout the hardcore scene. Now when people don't agree with something they tend not to support it, further more they will contest it, so the lack of this gives a good impression that this is supported by straightedge people. Now i have no desire to change your opinion, i really don't. If you think that there is no evidence that people worldwide have a common line of thought to a degree when it comes to straight edge, then please, believe that. I don't have time to waste to convince a mind that is set so you either accept my point based on looking at what straightedge kids worldwide support or you don't. There is no poll its just a case of looking at what is actively happening in straightedge worldwide, it is expressed through action let that be your verbatim if you so need. If you disagree and choose that there is no common line of thought then thats your opinion, hope it works for you.




Just hardcore or straight edge hardcore? Or both possible?

Well i thought the math was pretty simple but once more for your good self:

If you add drug free ideals and beliefs to hardcore then you get straightedge hardcore.

If you are asking, for some unfathomable reason, if a drug free kid who listens to hardcore could be considered straightedge then before i answer i would have to ask why would they not listen to hardcore discussing straightedge? Why would they not support that? If they don't wish to support that then why would they want/need to be refered to as straightedge? I mean it is fair to say that part of being straightedge is actually supporting straightedge right? Its less of an idle definition that people just fall into by default, its an active participation thing, you choose to be straightedge and support what that means, you get behind it. You don't just attempt to tick boxes to fit the bill, your a part of it because its what you believe, you support it because its what you think is right. I can't see a reason then, for not wanting to be apart of straightedge hardcore.

[Slober]

Fuck any one who is drug free just so that they can call them selves straight edge! I mean WTF? If you are not edge, then you are not, then you are drug free. Don't fucking take the stupid image of straight edge on you and turn the meaning of the word around. Straight Edge is more than just being drug free, it's the music, the shows, the scene. Why is it so hard to understand? Why does everyone wanna call them selves straight edge??? Is it so hard to do those things with out posing for some word?

[XbriX]

I would consider myself a straight egde person. I am involved in the music scene, not as much as i used to but i am. I first learned about straight edge through this scene, and i've always been drug free my whole life but never put value to it or put total commitment towards it. I learned a lot from this scene but got to find that it was very judgemental and often militant. Straight edge is definitly tightly involved into the hardcore music scene and has evolved from it but i believe when it comes down to it, its the indiviual's believes that make them straight egde. For me, i'm more on the spiritiual aspects of straight edge more that anything. I want to be in my furthest state mentally possible and be able to have a clear and open mind at all times. Because of my mental power and dedication towards my current lifestyle, i've maintained a very highly spiritiual state in which when i meditate i can leave my body. In my dreams i see the future, i see the past and i am blessed with this gift. I value my beliefs because they have brought me to this place. I see people in my life surrounded by drugs and are lost in no self control. They would be so powerful and give themselves a cleaner life without drugs. I see both sides. I am able to accept others choices and not judge them on their life's choices. Being straight edge i feel you need to accept all different types of lifestyle choices from others into your life. Straight edge is hard for people in my life to accept, it isn't easy.
This is true that straight edge comes and is involved deeply within the hardcore scene but also once a person takes this commitment t becomes their own. How they choose to see it, how they choose how it can help your life, where they can make positive chances. Its easy to bark at people and say what they are and what they are not. But you grab the torch and run with it, straight edge is deeply personal and may never be truly defined. I believe it has a different meaning to everyone. It effects all of us so strongly, but on different levels. All we can to do is embrace eachother and celebrate the wonderful choices we have made.

[straightXed]

I would consider myself a straight egde person. I am involved in the music scene, not as much as i used to but i am. I first learned about straight edge through this scene, and i've always been drug free my whole life but never put value to it or put total commitment towards it. I learned a lot from this scene but got to find that it was very judgemental and often militant. Straight edge is definitly tightly involved into the hardcore music scene and has evolved from it but i believe when it comes down to it, its the indiviual's believes that make them straight egde. For me, i'm more on the spiritiual aspects of straight edge more that anything. I want to be in my furthest state mentally possible and be able to have a clear and open mind at all times. Because of my mental power and dedication towards my current lifestyle, i've maintained a very highly spiritiual state in which when i meditate i can leave my body. In my dreams i see the future, i see the past and i am blessed with this gift. I value my beliefs because they have brought me to this place. I see people in my life surrounded by drugs and are lost in no self control. They would be so powerful and give themselves a cleaner life without drugs. I see both sides. I am able to accept others choices and not judge them on their life's choices. Being straight edge i feel you need to accept all different types of lifestyle choices from others into your life. Straight edge is hard for people in my life to accept, it isn't easy.
This is true that straight edge comes and is involved deeply within the hardcore scene but also once a person takes this commitment t becomes their own. How they choose to see it, how they choose how it can help your life, where they can make positive chances. Its easy to bark at people and say what they are and what they are not. But you grab the torch and run with it, straight edge is deeply personal and may never be truly defined. I believe it has a different meaning to everyone. It effects all of us so strongly, but on different levels. All we can to do is embrace eachother and celebrate the wonderful choices we have made.


If it cannot be defined and is allowed to mean something different to everyone then it really has no meaning at all. Its not about being militant or judgemental its simply just that if you use a term to define all kinds of other things, motions or perspectives then the term gets watered down and corupted from what it is actually intended to define.

If you feel more spiritual as a result of abstinance and being involved in hardcore then great but it doesn't mean that straight edge is at all spiritual. Its fair to say straightedge doesn't have spiritual aspects and that any spiritual aspects you find in it are personal conclusions that aren't definitive of straightedge. Its a case of you evolving beyond straightedge not straightedge evolving. This isn't to say that straightedge isn't evolving, it is constantly but within its definition, and sure it spurs evoloution in other things. However if everyone who was straightedge used the term straightedge to define multitudes of things that may have been a knock on effect of the choice of becoming straightedge...well then you'd just end up with a reletively redundent term. Things have definitions for a very good reason and wanting to have an accurate definition is not about telling people what they are or aren't at all its just about having straightedge actually be a term that means something and not a term that means everything and nothing.

Its great that you can leave your body, see the future in your dreams and all that but if you said to me that you were straightedge then that term doesn't cover those things. I mean people can be influnced by straightedge to do so many different things, that simply doesn't make any of those things qualify to be described by the term straightedge, you can't just add things to its definition at will. And again you can't take things away from its definition at will either, hardcore is just as important to the definition of straightedge as abstinance from drugs, if someone chose to omit the abstinance of drugs it would clearly not be straightedge anymore and its the same with hardcore.

I'm happy to accept all kinds of different lifestyles but i really don't feel that one needs to compromise definitions to accept peoples choices.

[XbriX]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality? Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related. I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother. It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge. Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs. This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control. A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others. It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different

[stepinsideissue]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality? Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related. I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother. It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge. Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs. This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control. A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others. It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different


I'm with Ed on this one as will alot of people. All the extras are fine and good. But the simple fact of the matter is that all those things you listed have no more conecction to sXe than veg/vegan does. They may run side by side but they are very separate things. sXe is very simple. Don't drink, dont do drugs and listen to hardcore. Nothing more nothing less. The very meaning of sXe that people have sung, and lived for more than 20 years is being ruined by too many people trying to add thier own ideas and inturptitations to it. It is in fact a scene ruining the real scene.

[straightXed]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality?


This is not what i said at all, it can lead anywhere but where it leads, be it spiritual or physical, doesn't become an element of straightedge.


Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related.


Thats fine and for many people straightedge may lead them to make a multitude of different choices. It could get you into skateboarding or it could get you into physical fitness but none of those things come under the umbrella of the term straightedge. I'm not asking you to ignore a connection i'm actually asking you to clearly see a definition. Of course it can plug you in to all kinds of other choices, its the same for any choice you make.


I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother.

I don't believe it to be spiritual and what you described right there didn't conjur up spiritual for me at all. I deny the spiritual connection you speak of quite bluntly and to me it is more of a social connection - tribal or pack like but not spiritual. Of course you are welcome to believe that it is a spiritual for everyone but when many disagree then it can hardly stand up saying it is a spiritual thing. I mean for you it may be, it might help you see the future and all that but for others it takes them in different directions. The solid remaining fact are that straightedge sums up nothing more than hardcore kids abstaining from drugs, where ever it takes you after that is personal and that personal path isn't summed up by the term straightedge. If it was straightedge would mean everything and nothing and thats pretty useless hence why i am taking the time to reply to you here.


It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge.

If its a fact for you but not me then its not a huge part of being straightedge its a huge part what you are into. You want to encompass your beliefs of spirituality into straightedge but it doesn't fit, for you it might but the term has to fit everyone not just yourself. Straightedge is a great platform to start from and can lead many people to other things but like i say those other things are just that - other things.


Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs.

A pearsons reasons for going straightedge are personal and not really a gauge on what straightedge defines, some people may do it for fitness and some may do it to score with the oppisite sex but these things vary for everyone and aren't going to describe what straightedge is. However for the largest part people choose to mbecome straightedge because they love hardcore and things drugs suck.




This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control.

of course human behaviour is intricate and our reasons for doing things can be due to all kinds of input but this is all about the individual and straightedge is a term to define many people as a group, or sub culture and what it describes is several key factors that can be found in everyone of those people. With what you are doing it would need to change its defintion to describe every individual and with that it just stops having a definite definition.


A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others.

Ok so how many ways do you take the definition "kids that are active within the hardcore mosic scene and abstain from recreational drug use" I would like to know the many different ways you would take that definition, and i don't mean how would you add to it because that would just destroy the idea of a definition. The word fish has a defintion but is i personally decided that cat could also be summed up by the word fish it doesn't make it so, does it? Regardless of how i attempt to justify it a fish is a fish and a cat is a cat.



It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

If it gives you a clear head and a clear head helps with spirituality then great, i'm glad but it doesn't make straightedge spiritual its just helped you in other aspects of your life like it can help in a million ways. Driving a car isn't martial arts but skills gained from driving can aid one in martial arts. We can draw upon so many things in life and use them in other aspects of life but it doesn't make those things entwined or interchangable.


"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

The place for that discussion is probably best to be raised in the religion forum as there is much discussion about christianity and straightedge. If you are interested in that discussion then post in that thread but i feel it veers of from the discussion in hand here.


You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different

Indirect connection perhaps, i don't deny it can be benificial for a spiritual person and may even influence people to get spiritual. Thats all well and good but the connection is indirect and not definitive of straightedge, i don't see why its so hard to believe especially with the text you quoted in the previous paragraph. I could say straightedge brought me closer to all the things in my life right now and i would be telling the truth kind of, the point is straightedge isn't the only choice you made, millions of choices lead you to where you are now and where you are spiritually and the focus shouldn't be on the choice to become straightedge as much. Its a great choice don't get me wrong but in itself its not a spiritual choice no matter where it has taken you. Straightedge doesnt describe any spiritual aspect and that is why it is fair to say straightedge isn't really anything to do with spirituality. For you being clear minded helps you be more spiritual and you get a great personal release at hardcore shows that also helps you so its more accurate to say that straightedge fits in with your spiritual ideal, it poses no conflict to your spiritual self. Its like it is a seperate thing but on a personal level it can help with your spiritual ideals but when you hold straightedge up on its own its not a stand alone spiritual thing its just how you have personally utilised it. I'm glad its helped you in other ways, i'm sure we all have personal experiences of how straightedge has helped us as well as some stories of how it hasn't always helped but when you remove yourself or any personal slant from the equation straightedge itself remains non spiritual, its your personality and and personal choices that enable you to place your straightedge belief alongside your spiritual connection. You are spiritual, not straightedge.

[XbriX]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right. It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper. Every hardcore show i've been to, i've felt stron spiritiual energy, i can't believe you don't feel it. For you to say i am not straight edge is insulting and a blind statement. Can't you see my reasons for choosing this lifestyle go so much more deeper that what others are doing. Everyone has a reason to choose this lifestyle, it has to come from the human core and in your spiritual mind, thats what i believe and you can't tell me what i believe is wrong. I know the definition, but to me straightedge is directly linked to spiritually. For that to wrong, I just don't understand.

[straightXed]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right.

I'm not actually telling you what you aren't i'm talking about how straightedge doesn't work as a label for everything you are.




It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper. Every hardcore show i've been to, i've felt stron spiritiual energy, i can't believe you don't feel it.

I feel something different to you, i could be saying right here that you have no right to tell me straightedge is more and that you shouldn't make me feel that i am missing an element of straightedge, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of. The point is i'm not saying that, you are spiritual and thats a personal thing for you and i'm telling you its not found in all straightedge people, you should try to believe that. And the way definitions and terms like this work, well they don't just chop and change meanings from individual to individual. The term straightedge doesn't cover being spiritual even if you feel a spiritual connection at hardcore shows or find a clear mind helps with being spiritual. You are trying to make the term apply to more than it does, it seems you failed to even entertain the points i raised and just chose to ignore them. Right now i feel like i am repeating myself and that you aren't really looking to discuss the issues rather than say the same thing over and over, it would be nice if you actually took the time to enter into a discussion.


For you to say i am not straight edge is insulting and a blind statement.

Did you read my post? because i never said you weren't straightedge, perhaps it is you who is blind. I am saying you are straightedge but your spiritual connection is something extra to that, its something not found in every straightedge person just as not every straightedge person skateboards or follows veganism.


Can't you see my reasons for choosing this lifestyle go so much more deeper that what others are doing.

To be honest your reasons for choosing it are irrelevent, like i say people choose it for many different reasons, sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn't. The reason you decide to become straightedge doesn't define what straightedge actually is.


Everyone has a reason to choose this lifestyle, it has to come from the human core and in your spiritual mind, thats what i believe and you can't tell me what i believe is wrong.

But its ok for you to tell me that you have to choose straightedge with your spiritual mind? How is that not complete hipocracy? You are applying your personal beliefs to everyone, you are adding things to the definition based on what you believe. I didn't choose it with my spiritual mind and you seem to want to tell me that i have to, i am able to give you a definition that describes all straightedge people, you want to give a description that describes more than straightedge and doesn't fit everyone.



I know the definition, but to me straightedge is directly linked to spiritually. For that to wrong, I just don't understand.

If you know the definition you will know that you don't have to be spiritual to be straightedge. I have never said you can't be spiritual just that its something extra to straightedge and not something that is definitive of all straightedge people. A definition needs to apply accross the board - spirituality, veganism, skateboarding etc. are all things that straightedge may lead you too but they are not tennents of straightedge.

[xsecx]

I am not a spiritual person, does that mean I'm not straight edge?

[PROPER JERK]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right. It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper.

Deep, Deeper, Deepest!

[hxcsxe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD_fh1F8zHs#qRprqsEd3MQ

come across this vid and she says the hardcore music has nothing to do with straight edge or sumin, worded abit odd to be honest

[xsecx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD_fh1F8zHs#qRprqsEd3MQ

come across this vid and she says the hardcore music has nothing to do with straight edge or sumin, worded abit odd to be honest


wow, she's a little clueless and it makes me wonder if she even understands where the term even came from.

[PROPER JERK]

wow, she's a little clueless and it makes me wonder if she even understands where the term even came from.

Wikipedia duh!

[SgtD]

Wikipedia duh!
says the "christian sxe" talk about clueless!

[JoeyX]

yeah but the point is that you can't be straight edge without knowing about it. you can be drug free, but straight edge is a specific subculture that you are an active part of.

This I question to a point though. What if there is a kid who has the internet, that has loved hardcore all of his life. And claims to be edge, but has no scene to be "active" with straight-edge, and the subculture in a sense. I mean yeah, he could make a scene, or a whatever, but is he NOT edge, because there is no scene, or place where this person might live that has any kind of active sxe anything, weather it be shows, or a group of hardcore friends who are straight-edge. Is he not edge, because he has nothing around him to be "active" about it. This question might be confusing, but answer if you understand.

[xsecx]

This I question to a point though. What if there is a kid who has the internet, that has loved hardcore all of his life. And claims to be edge, but has no scene to be "active" with straight-edge, and the subculture in a sense. I mean yeah, he could make a scene, or a whatever, but is he NOT edge, because there is no scene, or place where this person might live that has any kind of active sxe anything, weather it be shows, or a group of hardcore friends who are straight-edge. Is he not edge, because he has nothing around him to be "active" about it. This question might be confusing, but answer if you understand.

if you're not an active participant, then how are you part of a subculture? I could be bald, really love checker things and oi music, would that make me a skinhead?

I also don't think that there is really a place on earth now where there aren't at least some kids doing something.

[stepinsideissue]

if you're not an active participant, then how are you part of a subculture? I could be bald, really love checker things and oi music, would that make me a skinhead?

I also don't think that there is really a place on earth now where there aren't at least some kids doing something.


You could be bald???????? Haha sorry man!

[JoeyX]

if you're not an active participant, then how are you part of a subculture? I could be bald, really love checker things and oi music, would that make me a skinhead?

I also don't think that there is really a place on earth now where there aren't at least some kids doing something.

There are actually many places. I understand where your coming from, but I still think that someone should be able to claim edge if they want, weather or not they have other people around them, a subculture, doing it also. I'am straight-edge, and if every human being on the face of this earth died....would that make me not edge anymore? would that make you not edge anymore? just because there isn't a subculture to be active with now?

[xsecx]

There are actually many places. I understand where your coming from, but I still think that someone should be able to claim edge if they want, weather or not they have other people around them, a subculture, doing it also. I'am straight-edge, and if every human being on the face of this earth died....would that make me not edge anymore? would that make you not edge anymore? just because there isn't a subculture to be active with now?

dude, if there are active scenes in most countries in the world now, I seriously doubt it. Straight edge is more than the beliefs. If you're actively a part of something, then what's the point claiming straight edge, if you're just a single person, alone?

[PROPER JERK]

dude, if there are active scenes in most countries in the world now, I seriously doubt it. Straight edge is more than the beliefs. If you're actively a part of something, then what's the point claiming straight edge, if you're just a single person, alone?

I don't exactly know what joey is trying to debate but me coming from a place with a terrible misconception of hardcore and straight edge I do feel you can actively be a part of things simply by buying records, wearing merch and being able to relate to the music. Here in my part of Australia you get to see about 5-8 good straight edge bands play each year usually having to travel long distances to see them. Any edge band from my state is a terrible joke that plays the usual dumbshit militant mosh metal which I do not really want to support or be around. Although not the same feeling as being there at a show, I do feel getting siked on the music and the message can still count as being part of it. Maybe I am just stating the obvious here though.

[JoeyX]

dude, if there are active scenes in most countries in the world now, I seriously doubt it. Straight edge is more than the beliefs. If you're actively a part of something, then what's the point claiming straight edge, if you're just a single person, alone?

I pride myself on being straight edge, it's what I'am, it's my belief, the point of claiming straight edge weather it be alone or be with a subculture, is about being loyal to your beliefs, having the love of saying, "I'm straight edge", weather nobody hears it, or a million people hear it. I love the fact that I'm straight edge, weather people are around to know it or not, the point of claiming edge is because I believe anything else is wrong, weather anybody would believe me or not.....I mean, yeah it is pointless to walk around and be like "I'm edge" if I'm just a single person, but it's not pointless to BE edge, if you're a single person(as in, no subculture around you). However, I would like to point out that I'am in a hardcore "scene", I'am active, I'm just debating with you about this, I'm not like a person who has no scene or subculture. Because I actually have a lot of friends who ARE edge, and who are active also within straight edge.

For example, what if, now this is a BIG what if, but just say, everybody in this entire world, thought you were a complete idiot or thought you were wrong for being straight edge....would that mean your not straight edge because you have no subculture around you to believe what you believe, or to be active with you within straight edge? My point is, I'm straight edge, and weather or not there is a subculture around me that believes the same as me, I'm still gonna be straight edge, nobody can change that.

[xsecx]

I pride myself on being straight edge, it's what I'am, it's my belief, the point of claiming straight edge weather it be alone or be with a subculture, is about being loyal to your beliefs, having the love of saying, "I'm straight edge", weather nobody hears it, or a million people hear it. I love the fact that I'm straight edge, weather people are around to know it or not, the point of claiming edge is because I believe anything else is wrong, weather anybody would believe me or not.....I mean, yeah it is pointless to walk around and be like "I'm edge" if I'm just a single person, but it's not pointless to BE edge, if you're a single person(as in, no subculture around you). However, I would like to point out that I'am in a hardcore "scene", I'am active, I'm just debating with you about this, I'm not like a person who has no scene or subculture. Because I actually have a lot of friends who ARE edge, and who are active also within straight edge.

For example, what if, now this is a BIG what if, but just say, everybody in this entire world, thought you were a complete idiot or thought you were wrong for being straight edge....would that mean your not straight edge because you have no subculture around you to believe what you believe, or to be active with you within straight edge? My point is, I'm straight edge, and weather or not there is a subculture around me that believes the same as me, I'm still gonna be straight edge, nobody can change that.


yeah, but the entire point is, that straight edge is the subculture, and you're only straight edge, if you're a part of it. So if the subculture ceased to exist, then you couldn't be straight edge, because the term and it's meaning wouldn't exist. A person alone is just drug free, a group of people are straight edge.

[xCrucialDudex]

how about a dispersed group of people?

[JoeyX]

yeah, but the entire point is, that straight edge is the subculture, and you're only straight edge, if you're a part of it. So if the subculture ceased to exist, then you couldn't be straight edge, because the term and it's meaning wouldn't exist. A person alone is just drug free, a group of people are straight edge.

I get what your saying more now. See I guess I never really saw it like that, but yea that is true, that the meaning of straight edge has the subculture in it. I honestly get what you mean now haha.

[XalcoholsucksX]

What if someone was raised upon country music as a child? So they spent their whole lives listening to it. At some point they got into drugs, got addicted, but then heard aboutstraightedge but only wanted to better themselves, get off drugs, and claim edge. Could they not take on the title because they didn't like hardcore? Only because they were raised upon country.

[xsecx]

What if someone was raised upon country music as a child? So they spent their whole lives listening to it. At some point they got into drugs, got addicted, but then heard aboutstraightedge but only wanted to better themselves, get off drugs, and claim edge. Could they not take on the title because they didn't like hardcore? Only because they were raised upon country.

if they don't have any involvement with hardcore, then they wouldn't be straight edge, that's kind of the point, straight edge is a music based subculture, it's not just about being drug free.

[XalcoholsucksX]

But what if somebody as a child was raised upon country music let's say. How about they get into drugs at 15, but then hear about straightedge at 17. They really wanna be a part of the movement to better themselves, but they don't like hardcore because it's not what they grew up on. Can they not take of the edge just because they don't like hardcore music?

[xsecx]

But what if somebody as a child was raised upon country music let's say. How about they get into drugs at 15, but then hear about straightedge at 17. They really wanna be a part of the movement to better themselves, but they don't like hardcore because it's not what they grew up on. Can they not take of the edge just because they don't like hardcore music?

I don't think you really understand what a music based subculture is. Hardcore has as much to do with what makes someone straight edge as being drug free does. The music is the medium for the message. It's the how people meet and how ideas are shared. If you're in a new city, pretty much anywhere in the world, go find a hardcore show and chances are someone there will be straight edge. I've never understood why someone would choose to call themselves straight edge, if they didn't like hardcore music, since to really understand what straight edge is and where it came from, you'd have to really look into hardcore music and the scene that straight edge came from.

[Just-a-fool]

Well i'd like to place myself here as example.
I listen some hardcore bands, never went to a show though.
But i also listen other kinds of music, for example Johny Cash.
Cant call him very hardcore, so according to your explaination i
cant be edge just 'cause i listen to something else then hardcore?

[xsecx]

Well i'd like to place myself here as example.
I listen some hardcore bands, never went to a show though.
But i also listen other kinds of music, for example Johny Cash.
Cant call him very hardcore, so according to your explaination i
cant be edge just 'cause i listen to something else then hardcore?

no one ever said that hardcore is the only music that edge kids should listen to.

[xsleepingxsunrisex]

where is there a hardcore scene devoid of edge kids and never has edge bands play?This statement also contradicts your earlier post?


My hometown is where you can find that. We have tons of hardcore bands. . . well subgenre knockoffs and little kids who play breakdowns and call themselves, "tuff," but the closest thing we have to edge kids are the Christian Hardcore bands, and their fans, well. . . they don't practice what they or their favorite band preaches.<br><br>When I really think about edge and it's connection to hardcore and punk I think about the aggression that comes to not having fixes. With the hardcore scene you can let it all out in the sing alongs and the pits, and in an odd way it fills in for the drugs and shit in a more constructive manner. When you're at a genuine show you get helped up in the pit and it's like an estranged band of brothers and sisters, but when you're in a town like mine the pits consist of some younger kids two stepping and the tool that came with touring band pushing someone into them to because he thinks they make him look bad. So I get my fix at Indie shows. I guess it's because the pits here are always shitty, but singing your heart out with your favorite sloppy raw indie band lets out a lot too. And that's what it's about right? Being straightxedge is being drug free and channeling what you have to say about it back out through music? Even if I'm wrong about I won't think of myself as not straightxedge. Because calling myself drug free makes me feel like a speaker at an elementary school who's in community service for possesion of the product and isn't gonna change. Straightxedge has meaning and power behind it, and it lets people know what I'm about.

[xsecx]

My hometown is where you can find that. We have tons of hardcore bands. . . well subgenre knockoffs and little kids who play breakdowns and call themselves, "tuff," but the closest thing we have to edge kids are the Christian Hardcore bands, and their fans, well. . . they don't practice what they or their favorite band preaches.<br><br>When I really think about edge and it's connection to hardcore and punk I think about the aggression that comes to not having fixes. With the hardcore scene you can let it all out in the sing alongs and the pits, and in an odd way it fills in for the drugs and shit in a more constructive manner. When you're at a genuine show you get helped up in the pit and it's like an estranged band of brothers and sisters, but when you're in a town like mine the pits consist of some younger kids two stepping and the tool that came with touring band pushing someone into them to because he thinks they make him look bad. So I get my fix at Indie shows. I guess it's because the pits here are always shitty, but singing your heart out with your favorite sloppy raw indie band lets out a lot too. And that's what it's about right? Being straightxedge is being drug free and channeling what you have to say about it back out through music? Even if I'm wrong about I won't think of myself as not straightxedge. Because calling myself drug free makes me feel like a speaker at an elementary school who's in community service for possesion of the product and isn't gonna change. Straightxedge has meaning and power behind it, and it lets people know what I'm about.

yeah but if you're not into hardcore, then how does it really describe you?

[xsleepingxsunrisex]

yeah but if you're not into hardcore, then how does it really describe you?

Well it's not really that I'm not into hardcore because I love it. I just go through music phases a lot of the time and a lot of the heavier stuff I listen too I find out more and more is just subgenre stuff and not really hardcore. It really is awesome to go to a good hardcore show, but to go to good ones I'd have to go to Chicago or Indianapolis a lot and gas is expensive. So I sort of settle for what I can get. Chicago is four hours north and Indy is an hour and half to the east. So until I get a job and off on the right foot I can only get to the good shows on rare occasions. But the indie bands in Terre Haute are the closest thing I can get to a raw, and releasing show.

The heavy shows in Terre Haute that have good pits are bands that sound like (or even cover) Job For a Cowboy, and that I really am not down with.

[x2stepprogramx]

Hell if I go to death metal or heavy metal show. I don't like the genres much, so why should I go to these shows only because there are no hxc ones???

Id rather put my headphones on and go skating than that.

I second that. I went to a nile show once just because there was nothing to do...i left really angry i spent 20 bucks after the 2nd band. Dont just do something to do it. Do it because youre passionate about it.

And no, I really dont think you can claim edge without being at least a very passionate hardcore enthusiast. Main argument being that the term was born out of hardcore and wouldnt exist without it. I actually think its kind of disrespectful to claim edge with no link to hardcore. It like basically saying that you didnt care enough about it to learn about its roots. Like kids that are all under the impression that a band is only a hardcore band if they droptune their instruments to A and play nothing but breakdowns. A lot of these kids claim edge and dont even have a clue who ian mackaye is.

Sure draw x's on your hands and write true till death on everything but at the end of the day if you dont know where it came from then its got no meaning. then its just an x and a slogan.