medication

[yaslmiri]

with the straight edge abstinance(sp?) from mind altering substances, what's the rule on perscription medication for bi-polar, and schitsophrenia and other disorders? the medication very obviously altars you'r mental state, but is it acceptable due to creating a safer mental state and a more secure reality?

[Tahir]

with the straight edge abstinance(sp?) from mind altering substances, what's the rule on perscription medication for bi-polar, and schitsophrenia and other disorders? the medication very obviously altars you'r mental state, but is it acceptable due to creating a safer mental state and a more secure reality?

i personally don't have any faith in "western medicine" and would look into TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine)
which will evaluate your diet and sleeping schedule and fix the problem with acupuncture, Herbal remedies, sleep, changes in diet or lifestyle, exercise, and massage.

this is the "natural" way of doing things, and is an excellent alternative to drugs and the side effects of them.

but that is just my opinion, others will most likely disagree.
peace.
-Tahir.

[Sand Stealer]

Well I know someone personally who is schizophrenic and there is no way I would want them to come off the medication if they were straight edge, because it is so scary for them when they do. I think that medication is acceptable in circumstances like this, because it isn't really safe for you if you don't try to fix it.

[xvunderx]

Edge is against recreational drugs, those instances aren't recreational, and I knew a schizophrenic girl who decided to come of her meds and it was really sad.

[xsecx]

i personally don't have any faith in "western medicine" and would look into TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine)
which will evaluate your diet and sleeping schedule and fix the problem with Herbal remedies, diet and sleep.

this is the "natural" way of doing things, and is an excellent alternative to drugs and the side effects of them.

but that is just my opinion, others will most likely disagree.
peace.
-Tahir.

What evidence do you have to support that your approach would affect severe mental disorders?

[Tahir]

What evidence do you have to support that your approach would affect severe mental disorders?



so... did you accidentally miss the part where i said " i personally" and "my opinion?"

although i can't personally prove to you that it works, since i'm not a doctor, any more than you can prove to me that it doesn't, i can suggest a book
http://chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com/about_praise.htm

TCM has been treating mental illness, and disorders for over 2000 years.

western medicine gives almost everybody the same "medicine" which doesn't "fix the problem" it only surpresses symptoms. TCM, CCM, Accupuncture, etc. brings balance to the chemicals within the body, and fixes the cause of the problem and not the symptoms.

an example, is that you and i have different chemical make up in our bodies, so if we were diagnosed with a similar disorder, why does it make sense to prescribe the same medications which is only a mixture of chemicals?

doesn't it make more sense to see which chemicals within each body are either lacking or over powering other chemicals and balance it out?

[Tahir]

Edge is against recreational drugs, those instances aren't recreational, and I knew a schizophrenic girl who decided to come of her meds and it was really sad.

i'm not suggesting coming off of medication, just suggesting alternative medications. (not that i think this comment was directed towards me, just clarifying...)

[rodrigo]

and girls can also use cherokee hair tampons

[xsecx]

so... did you accidentally miss the part where i said " i personally" and "my opinion?"


yeah and I'm asking what evidence you looked at to come to your opinion.



although i can't personally prove to you that it works, since i'm not a doctor, any more than you can prove to me that it doesn't, i can suggest a book
http://chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com/about_praise.htm

TCM has been treating mental illness, and disorders for over 2000 years.

western medicine gives almost everybody the same "medicine" which doesn't "fix the problem" it only surpresses symptoms. TCM, CCM, Accupuncture, etc. brings balance to the chemicals within the body, and fixes the cause of the problem and not the symptoms.

an example, is that you and i have different chemical make up in our bodies, so if we were diagnosed with a similar disorder, why does it make sense to prescribe the same medications which is only a mixture of chemicals?

doesn't it make more sense to see which chemicals within each body are either lacking or over powering other chemicals and balance it out?

Western medicine doesn't give everyone the same medicine though. That's why there are different drugs to treat the same thing because not everyone reacts to them the same. I'd be really interested to see what medical/scientific studies you have to support the use of this idea though.

[Tahir]

yeah and I'm asking what evidence you looked at to come to your opinion.

i base my opinion, on books that i've read and things that i've tried personally that have been recomended by TCM practitioners.
if you like you can read as much about TCM and CCM online easier than i can go and list all the books i have read. some of the books i have in my own "library" :

*Acupuncture in the Treatment of Depression: A Manual for Practice & Research
SCHNYER Rosa N. & ALLEN John J.B..

*Chinese Medical Psychiatry: A Textbook & Clinical Manual
FLAWS Bob & LAKE James.

*Chinese Medicine from the Classics: The Seven Emotions - Psychology & Health in Ancient China

LARRE Claude & ROCHAT Elisabeth de la Valle.
*Handbook of Complementary & Alternative Therapy in Mental Health
SHANNON Scott

*Prescriptions for Herbal Healing by Phyllis A. Balch

*The How to Herb Handbook, by Velma J. Keith and Monteen Gordon

*Treating AIDS With Chinese Medicine, Mary K. Ryan and Arthur D. Shattuck

*The Cure for HIV and AIDS, Hulda Regehr Clark, Ph.D., N.D.

*principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Xu, Xiangcai


Western medicine doesn't give everyone the same medicine though.

you're right, that's why i said ALMOST everybody.


That's why there are different drugs to treat the same thing because not everyone reacts to them the same.

okay, but giving somebody "tylenol" as opposed to "advil" for a headache isn't exactly giving somebody "medicine" based on THEM personally. again it's just giving different ways of suppressing symptoms of the same "sickness".

TCM, evaluates EACH patient and treats them specifically. instead of having a stock pile of chemical based pills and liquids and calling it "medicine."


I'd be really interested to see what medical/scientific studies you have to support the use of this idea though.

why do you insist on arguing this? as if people haven't been practicing TCM significantly longer then "western" medicine.

[xsecx]

i base my opinion, on books that i've read and things that i've tried personally that have been recomended by TCM practitioners.
if you like you can read as much about TCM and CCM online easier than i can go and list all the books i have read. some of the books i have in my own "library" :

*Acupuncture in the Treatment of Depression: A Manual for Practice & Research
SCHNYER Rosa N. & ALLEN John J.B..

*Chinese Medical Psychiatry: A Textbook & Clinical Manual
FLAWS Bob & LAKE James.

*Chinese Medicine from the Classics: The Seven Emotions - Psychology & Health in Ancient China

LARRE Claude & ROCHAT Elisabeth de la Valle.
*Handbook of Complementary & Alternative Therapy in Mental Health
SHANNON Scott

*Prescriptions for Herbal Healing by Phyllis A. Balch

*The How to Herb Handbook, by Velma J. Keith and Monteen Gordon

*Treating AIDS With Chinese Medicine, Mary K. Ryan and Arthur D. Shattuck

*The Cure for HIV and AIDS, Hulda Regehr Clark, Ph.D., N.D.

*principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Xu, Xiangcai


I'd be interested to see the studies cited in the books as supporting evidence.




you're right, that's why i said ALMOST everybody.

and even that's not even true. that's why there are completely DIFFERENT drugs used to treat the same symptoms since not everyone is responsive to the same treatment.



okay, but giving somebody "tylenol" as opposed to "advil" for a headache isn't exactly giving somebody "medicine" based on THEM personally. again it's just giving different ways of suppressing symptoms of the same "sickness".

how isn't it, when tylenol and advil are completely different drugs?



TCM, evaluates EACH patient and treats them specifically. instead of having a stock pile of chemical based pills and liquids and calling it "medicine."


where do you think drugs come from? This statement makes it sound like TCM is effective immediately every time and that individuals never have to go through alternative treatments when the initial treatment doesn't work.



why do you insist on arguing this? as if people haven't been practicing TCM significantly longer then "western" medicine.
because the amount of time it's been practiced doesn't relate to whether or not something is a good idea. If it was the life expectancy up until fairly recently wouldn't have been so low. If it were a good idea, it'd be backed up by science. The idea that TCM is more effective than western medicine and that western medicine has no value is completely laughable.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=xsecx]I'd be interested to see the studies cited in the books as supporting evidence.

then you can buy the books.


and even that's not even true. that's why there are completely DIFFERENT drugs used to treat the same symptoms since not everyone is responsive to the same treatment.

if you say so.



how isn't it, when tylenol and advil are completely different drugs?

because they are "stock" drugs. just because somebody reacts better to tylenol as opposed to advil, doesn't mean it was set up for them specifically....

and even then it is only battling the SYMPTOMS not the CAUSE of the headache.



where do you think drugs come from? This statement makes it sound like TCM is effective immediately every time and that individuals never have to go through alternative treatments when the initial treatment doesn't work.

no, the statement indicates that TCM evaluates the Inbalance within the body and balances it out. i never said that there aren't alternative treatments, when the initial treatment fails. i never said "western medicine is wrong" i just said i don't trust it.

why would the FDA give treatments or cures to somebody that is getting the imbalance or sick from the food the fda approves?....



because the amount of time it's been practiced doesn't relate to whether or not something is a good idea. If it was the life expectancy up until fairly recently wouldn't have been so low. If it were a good idea, it'd be backed up by science. The idea that TCM is more effective than western medicine and that western medicine has no value is completely laughable.

well, first of all TCM IS backed by science, it's exactly what it is... science.

again, i never said that western medicine has no value. i do believe that TCM is more effective in LONG term treatments. obviously if you were diagnosed with cancer and were expected to only live for a month and radiation treatment was the best idea, then go for it.

TCM, is different in that "patients" are ongoing and are treated BEFORE the imbalance gets too out of wak. this is why this method works. people go in for check ups and the skin color, color of tongue, eyes, etc. tell the TCM doctor where the imbalance is and they treat it before it turns into anything serious.

what do you think people did before the western invasion of the world? going back to indigenous cultures, do you think if they get a headache, do they just run to walmart and buy some tylenol? not likely.
western medicine is NOT

and a person being hooked up to m onitors and hopped up on some pills doesn't really count to me as "life expectancy"

but whatever, it's just a difference of opinion, i'm okay with that... maybe you should try it.....

[xsecx]

then you can buy the books.

I could, but why would I when you're using them as evidence?



if you say so.

Is this your way of admitting you're wrong?



because they are "stock" drugs. just because somebody reacts better to tylenol as opposed to advil, doesn't mean it was set up for them specifically....

and even then it is only battling the SYMPTOMS not the CAUSE of the headache.

So there aren't stock herbs, and everything in TCM is completely unique and different to each individual? How does TCM battle the cause of a headache?





no, the statement indicates that TCM evaluates the Inbalance within the body and balances it out. i never said that there aren't alternative treatments, when the initial treatment fails. i never said "western medicine is wrong" i just said i don't trust it.


So initial treatments fail, but how could they when they're set up for the person specifically and treating the cause? If western medicine isn't wrong, then why don't you trust it?



why would the FDA give treatments or cures to somebody that is getting the imbalance or sick from the food the fda approves?....


oh ok, so there's a major conspiracy keeping all of us sick now?





well, first of all TCM IS backed by science, it's exactly what it is... science.

ok. what scientific studies have you found that discuss concepts like yin and yang?



again, i never said that western medicine has no value. i do believe that TCM is more effective in LONG term treatments. obviously if you were diagnosed with cancer and were expected to only live for a month and radiation treatment was the best idea, then go for it.

TCM, is different in that "patients" are ongoing and are treated BEFORE the imbalance gets too out of wak. this is why this method works. people go in for check ups and the skin color, color of tongue, eyes, etc. tell the TCM doctor where the imbalance is and they treat it before it turns into anything serious.


ok, so TCM isn't an effective treatment for things like cancer? So it isn't the answer for everything? If this treatment method actually worked across the board and at least as well as western medicine, then why aren't there as many TCM offices as western doctor offices?



what do you think people did before the western invasion of the world? going back to indigenous cultures, do you think if they get a headache, do they just run to walmart and buy some tylenol? not likely.
western medicine is NOT

again, where do you think drugs came from ? It's like you have this weird concept that it's all based on artificial substances and that most drugs histories can't be traced back to some form in nature.



and a person being hooked up to m onitors and hopped up on some pills doesn't really count to me as "life expectancy"

but whatever, it's just a difference of opinion, i'm okay with that... maybe you should try it.....
so you think people should be dead by the time they hit 40? I hope you have your affairs in order then.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=xsecx]I could, but why would I when you're using them as evidence?

i'm not using them as "evidence" you asked me what i read, and i told you.



Is this your way of admitting you're wrong?

no.


So there aren't stock herbs, and everything in TCM is completely unique and different to each individual? How does TCM battle the cause of a headache?

yes there are stock herbs. and tcm is unique to each individual, because each individual has different reasons for headaches. western medicine treats the symptoms, not the root cause.
i don't know why this is such a hard concept to understand.





So initial treatments fail, but how could they when they're set up for the person specifically and treating the cause? If western medicine isn't wrong, then why don't you trust it?

it's always a possibility that the initial treatment will fail, even with western medicine. i'm not saying TCM is perfect for everybody. because you have to be willing to do what the TCM doctor tells you. and for some reason i get the idea that, you for example, would not be willing to change in diet, habbit, etc. since you pretty much know everything. (sarcasm since you are so arrogant you probably think im stroking your ego like everybody else on these forums.)



oh ok, so there's a major conspiracy keeping all of us sick now?

it's simple logic really. the fda controls the food we eat. we get sick, and the fda also conveniently controls the medications we take. when we pump our bodies full of things like Caffeine, sugars, and "artificial ingredients/colors" where 9 out of 10 times they don't tell you WHERE these artificial ingredients come from.

the fda doesn't want you to NOT be sick. they want to suppress your symptoms so that you think " oh wow that medication sure works well..." and so next time your symptoms resurface, what do you do???? you go buy the same product that worked last time. sure surpressing a headache is awesome, but wouldn't you rather seek the root cause and just get rid of it all together?

some people get recurring migranes, so they keep buying and taking tylenol. when they could more than likely go to an accupressurist or accupuncurist and have the imbalance located and fixed through massage. or even chiropractors can re-align your spine which will in most cases get rid of your headache.

The western Freemasonic medical institution was established by killing off natural herbalists as "witches" and introducing disease-spreading concepts, cancer-creating drugs and body-destructive surgery in order to control the population both demographically and make them physically dependent on the system.



ok. what scientific studies have you found that discuss concepts like yin and yang?

are you kidding me? if you really want to know, GOOGLE it. why do you ask, when you've asked which books i've read, you ignored it all and made a wak comment about me using it as "evidence".

the concept of Yin/Yang is complimentory opposites. you can't have light without dark, you can't have hot without cold, love without hate etc.

here is a pretty good explanaition of it:
http://www.damo-qigong.net/yinyang.htm



ok, so TCM isn't an effective treatment for things like cancer?

yes it is. but the difference is that people who rely solely on western methods don't get treated in MOST cases until AFTER the symptoms arise.


So it isn't the answer for everything? If this treatment method actually worked across the board and at least as well as western medicine, then why aren't there as many TCM offices as western doctor offices?

for one, because we are in the west silly, and two, because the fda wont allow it.
http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbology/herbs28.htm
http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/1997/09/bruce_halstead.html
http://www.healthfreedom.info/Cancer%20Food%20Herbs.htm



again, where do you think drugs came from ? It's like you have this weird concept that it's all based on artificial substances and that most drugs histories can't be traced back to some form in nature.

making "medications" is alot like making Kool-Aid. you can take a pitcher of water, and if you don't put enough sugar, it is watered down. if you put too much sugar it may need more water or more kool-aid.
so i understand that medicinal drugs come from herbs etc. but the point is, if you are buying drugs to get "better" why give you the dosage your body requires? why not get paid more by stringing you along and making you prolong your healing process, by selling you "watered-down" drugs? or drugs with side effects, just to make more money by selling the treatment for THOSE side effects?

and again, why wait until you are sick to seek treatment? why not get routinely check-ups to fix imbalances BEFORE you get sick? that is the point of TCM, CCM, Accupuncure etc.



so you think people should be dead by the time they hit 40? I hope you have your affairs in order then.

my statement has nothing to do with being dead by 40.

[xsecx]

i'm not using them as "evidence" you asked me what i read, and i told you.

No, I asked you what evidence you used to base your opinion on.



no.

oh ok. so then all drugs are the same then?



yes there are stock herbs. and tcm is unique to each individual, because each individual has different reasons for headaches. western medicine treats the symptoms, not the root cause.
i don't know why this is such a hard concept to understand.

oh ok. so there are stock treatments, which in western medicine is bad, but in TCM it isn't?
I like how I ask a very pointed question and you can't answer it so I'll ask you again. How does TCM battle the cause of a headache? What are the causes of headaches that TCM can treat?



it's always a possibility that the initial treatment will fail, even with western medicine. i'm not saying TCM is perfect for everybody. because you have to be willing to do what the TCM doctor tells you. and for some reason i get the idea that, you for example, would not be willing to change in diet, habbit, etc. since you pretty much know everything. (sarcasm since you are so arrogant you probably think im stroking your ego like everybody else on these forums.)

Oh ok, then you shouldn't trust TCM for the same reason you don't trust western medicine, since the "individual treatments" don't always work just like western treatments don't always work. And this time, please try and answer this one, If western medicine isn't wrong, then why don't you trust it?





it's simple logic really. the fda controls the food we eat. we get sick, and the fda also conveniently controls the medications we take. when we pump our bodies full of things like Caffeine, sugars, and "artificial ingredients/colors" where 9 out of 10 times they don't tell you WHERE these artificial ingredients come from.

the fda doesn't want you to NOT be sick. they want to suppress your symptoms so that you think " oh wow that medication sure works well..." and so next time your symptoms resurface, what do you do???? you go buy the same product that worked last time. sure surpressing a headache is awesome, but wouldn't you rather seek the root cause and just get rid of it all together?

some people get recurring migranes, so they keep buying and taking tylenol. when they could more than likely go to an accupressurist or accupuncurist and have the imbalance located and fixed through massage. or even chiropractors can re-align your spine which will in most cases get rid of your headache.

The western Freemasonic medical institution was established by killing off natural herbalists as "witches" and introducing disease-spreading concepts, cancer-creating drugs and body-destructive surgery in order to control the population both demographically and make them physically dependent on the system.

You might want to adjust your tinfoil, the CIA can hear your thoughts. Now, how does this relate to the rest of the western world that doesn't have an FDA? Or is this all controlled by the free masons? I mean. let's think for a moment that the FDA doesn't actually make any products and they don't have any benefit financially from the number and kinds of drugs that people buy. Surely the reason why the world is healthier and living longer is because of a massive global conspiracy against TCM.





are you kidding me? if you really want to know, GOOGLE it. why do you ask, when you've asked which books i've read, you ignored it all and made a wak comment about me using it as "evidence".

the concept of Yin/Yang is complimentory opposites. you can't have light without dark, you can't have hot without cold, love without hate etc.

here is a pretty good explanaition of it:
http://www.damo-qigong.net/yinyang.htm


You know a simple "well no, I don't have any scientific studies to back up my crazy ass theory" would have worked.





yes it is. but the difference is that people who rely solely on western methods don't get treated in MOST cases until AFTER the symptoms arise.


So your solution would be constant trips to a TCM doctor? Of course if you constantly went to a western doctor you'd also catch anything going on.




for one, because we are in the west silly, and two, because the fda wont allow it.
http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbology/herbs28.htm
http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/1997/09/bruce_halstead.html
http://www.healthfreedom.info/Cancer%20Food%20Herbs.htm


ok, seriously, the apfn.org link talks about the new world order and ZOG, so yeah, awesome sources. You have 2 company that sells herbs and a bunch of nationalists. You're really showing me.






making "medications" is alot like making Kool-Aid. you can take a pitcher of water, and if you don't put enough sugar, it is watered down. if you put too much sugar it may need more water or more kool-aid.
so i understand that medicinal drugs come from herbs etc. but the point is, if you are buying drugs to get "better" why give you the dosage your body requires? why not get paid more by stringing you along and making you prolong your healing process, by selling you "watered-down" drugs? or drugs with side effects, just to make more money by selling the treatment for THOSE side effects?

and again, why wait until you are sick to seek treatment? why not get routinely check-ups to fix imbalances BEFORE you get sick? that is the point of TCM, CCM, Accupuncure etc.


So you'd rather string people along and have them undergo constant TCM treatments? Either methodology leaves you in the same place.





my statement has nothing to do with being dead by 40.
sure it does, since you don't think the increased life expectancy brought about by western medicine and science was a good thing.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=xsecx]No, I asked you what evidence you used to base your opinion on.

and i showed you books, and TOLD you that's where i base my opinion.



oh ok. so then all drugs are the same then?

that's not what i said.



oh ok. so there are stock treatments, which in western medicine is bad, but in TCM it isn't?
I like how I ask a very pointed question and you can't answer it so I'll ask you again. How does TCM battle the cause of a headache? What are the causes of headaches that TCM can treat?

no, there are stock HERBS, the actual "treatments" are a mixture of herbs to fit the specific individuals habbits. do you pay attention to anything you read at all? or just find little things to argue about?

what are causes of headaches that TCM can treat? high blood pressure, cerebral circulation, food allergies, dizziness, blurred vision, muscle tension, abdominal pain,


Oh ok, then you shouldn't trust TCM for the same reason you don't trust western medicine, since the "individual treatments" don't always work just like western treatments don't always work. And this time, please try and answer this one, If western medicine isn't wrong, then why don't you trust it?

i don't trust it because i don't trust it. i don't believe the FDA has an invested interest in healing our sicknesses. i'm sure i've already explained all of this. i trust TCM because it's more than just walk in the door, see a doctor for a minute and get a prescription of something we know nothing about. it's simple as that. TCM is more on a personal basis.
again, these are my opinions and i'm not telling you that you must ditch western medicine all together and seek out your local TCM doctor.





You might want to adjust your tinfoil, the CIA can hear your thoughts.

wow, how insightful.


Now, how does this relate to the rest of the western world that doesn't have an FDA? Or is this all controlled by the free masons? I mean. let's think for a moment that the FDA doesn't actually make any products and they don't have any benefit financially from the number and kinds of drugs that people buy.

now i know you are an imbicile if you believe that the fda has no financial bennefit of what foods and drugs are labeled and "approved"



Surely the reason why the world is healthier and living longer is because of a massive global conspiracy against TCM.

what is your basis for life expectancy being significantly larger than it was 2,000 years ago? i'm not talking about in the 40's or 30's.




You know a simple "well no, I don't have any scientific studies to back up my crazy ass theory" would have worked.

so now, light/dark is a crazy ass theory? why don't you provide YOUR sources that Yin/Yang theory is "crazy ass"





So your solution would be constant trips to a TCM doctor? Of course if you constantly went to a western doctor you'd also catch anything going on.

you're right, but who does it? and do you take your car for regular tune-ups, oil changes, and gas re-fills? of course you do, even if it doesn't require any of the above and what happens if you don't? your car gets sick.




ok, seriously, the apfn.org link talks about the new world order and ZOG, so yeah, awesome sources. You have 2 company that sells herbs and a bunch of nationalists. You're really showing me.

so i guess the new world order is a fairy tale? and where are your sources?






So you'd rather string people along and have them undergo constant TCM treatments? Either methodology leaves you in the same place.

and yes constant check ups is key to longevity. just like the car analogy.



sure it does, since you don't think the increased life expectancy brought about by western medicine and science was a good thing.

i don't know many people that think "life expectancy" is a good thing if it requires being hooked up to machines and hopped up on drugs.

i'd prefer doing it through herbology, TCM and other means.

[xsecx]

and i showed you books, and TOLD you that's where i base my opinion.

and it's now come full circle. So are you using them as evidence or not? If you are, then what studies do they cite that TCM is better than western medicine?



that's not what i said.

sure it is. your whole point was that they treat everyone with the same drugs, when that's not right at all.




no, there are stock HERBS, the actual "treatments" are a mixture of herbs to fit the specific individuals habbits. do you pay attention to anything you read at all? or just find little things to argue about?

what are causes of headaches that TCM can treat? high blood pressure, cerebral circulation, food allergies, dizziness, blurred vision, muscle tension, abdominal pain,


So there are still stock treatments. You can try and dance around it all you want, but it's still there.

Ok, so western medicine is completely incapable of treating anything you just listed? Or are you saying that people who self medicate are doing the same thing as someone who goes to a doctor to discuss chronic headaches?



i don't trust it because i don't trust it. i don't believe the FDA has an invested interest in healing our sicknesses. i'm sure i've already explained all of this. i trust TCM because it's more than just walk in the door, see a doctor for a minute and get a prescription of something we know nothing about. it's simple as that. TCM is more on a personal basis.
again, these are my opinions and i'm not telling you that you must ditch western medicine all together and seek out your local TCM doctor.


Oh ok. you convinced me. You don't trust it, not because you have any real reason to, you just don't. That's the best reason ever! You're gonna make a great dad with a bunch of "because I said so".






wow, how insightful.

I thought you were crazy before, but now you really have sealed it.



now i know you are an imbicile if you believe that the fda has no financial bennefit of what foods and drugs are labeled and "approved"

yeah silly me for thinking a government run and funded institution didn't exist purely to oppress and keep us sick. You sure showed me. I mean. the FDA only plays one role, where the CDC and NIH also do too, but yeah they must all be working together to keep us sick.





what is your basis for life expectancy being significantly larger than it was 2,000 years ago? i'm not talking about in the 40's or 30's.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy shows a pretty accepted table of life expectancy over time. Of course there's this that shows the life expectancy over the last 100 years in the US and how's it has increased. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027.
Are you going to try and argue that people don't live significantly longer now than they did 2000 years ago?





so now, light/dark is a crazy ass theory? why don't you provide YOUR sources that Yin/Yang theory is "crazy ass"


You do understand that you're asking me to provide sources for something that doesn't exist right? The crux of this and the reason why you responsed initially the way you did is that there are NO scientific studies that discuss the concepts of yin/yang and chi/qi.



you're right, but who does it? and do you take your car for regular tune-ups, oil changes, and gas re-fills? of course you do, even if it doesn't require any of the above and what happens if you don't? your car gets sick.

So how is this different than getting regular check ups at a western doctor? So the TCM folks are just doing it to get money of out people the same as western doctors, right?




so i guess the new world order is a fairy tale? and where are your sources?

is this the part where you start talking about how it's all the fault of the jews? Come on, complete the stereotype. Where are my sources for what? That there isn't a conspiracy against TCM?





and yes constant check ups is key to longevity. just like the car analogy.

then those constant check ups could also be achieved through western doctors too. It's a matter of going to a doctor more often rather than the treatment.





i don't know many people that think "life expectancy" is a good thing if it requires being hooked up to machines and hopped up on drugs.

i'd prefer doing it through herbology, TCM and other means.
Yeah, up until the last century you were doing really well if you lived to be 40. If you're all about living naturally you should make sure you shuffle off the mortal coil in the next 10 years or so. Of course if you don't, you have modern medicine to thank for it and not TCM.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=xsecx]and it's now come full circle. So are you using them as evidence or not? If you are, then what studies do they cite that TCM is better than western medicine?

evidence for what? you asked where i came to my conclusion and that is where. do i need to draw you a diagram?



sure it is. your whole point was that they treat everyone with the same drugs, when that's not right at all.

so you can't just go to wal-mart and buy a bunch of drugs? that are mass produced?




So there are still stock treatments. You can try and dance around it all you want, but it's still there.

yeah, stock herbs, treatments and if you go to the store there are bulk isles of flour and sugar too. but does bulk flour and sugar itself make a cake? no you must mix them and bake it right? are you really this stupid?


Ok, so western medicine is completely incapable of treating anything you just listed? Or are you saying that people who self medicate are doing the same thing as someone who goes to a doctor to discuss chronic headaches?

i never said western medicine can't do any of this. you asked what are some of the causes of headaches that TCM treats and i told you. you are the one trying to turn this into a TCM vs. Western Medicine thing. all i said is that i would prefer TCM and Natural Healing over "Medication"


Oh ok. you convinced me. You don't trust it, not because you have any real reason to, you just don't. That's the best reason ever! You're gonna make a great dad with a bunch of "because I said so".

first of all, i don't trust it because i don't trust a bunch of watered down drugs and i don't necessarily feel like paying some quack hundreds of dollars to give me something that most likely will not even work to begin with. these are MY PERSONAL FEELINGS and BELIEFES.
and secondly, i am a great dad, not only because i wont just give my baby any dime a dozen drug on the market, and feed him a bunch of bullshit "artificial ingredients"
but because i have the means, and patience to show him exactly why i feel the way i do. just because i'm not going through my library and re-typing entire books for you to read does not make me a bad father. and thirdly, attack me all you want, but only a piece of shit tries to bring up somebodies family. especially children.


I thought you were crazy before, but now you really have sealed it.

so you're saying that the FDA is not a business? i'm sure it's just a non-profit organization ran by volunteers now? you can think i'm crazy all you want, but you're an imbicile.



yeah silly me for thinking a government run and funded institution didn't exist purely to oppress and keep us sick. You sure showed me. I mean. the FDA only plays one role, where the CDC and NIH also do too, but yeah they must all be working together to keep us sick.

you say all of this as if the government is really meant for "we the people". mock me all you want, but it doesn't change my beliefes. you can go ahead and keep on trusting everybody because they tell you it's okay if you'd like. i'd rather keep on "questioning authority" personally.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy shows a pretty accepted table of life expectancy over time. Of course there's this that shows the life expectancy over the last 100 years in the US and how's it has increased. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027.
Are you going to try and argue that people don't live significantly longer now than they did 2000 years ago?

okay, fair enough. but this doesn't show anything that says "western medicine is better than TCM or natural remedies." unless i missed it. and there is nothing in this that implies that TCM and natural remedies/herbology is not also evolving with new scientific methods and studies. therefore, i didn't see anything that suggests that life expectancy is getting longer thanks entirely to western medicine.




You do understand that you're asking me to provide sources for something that doesn't exist right? The crux of this and the reason why you responsed initially the way you did is that there are NO scientific studies that discuss the concepts of yin/yang and chi/qi.

so there is no "scientific proof" that the food we eat gives us Qi (or energy?) and there is no scientific proof that light can not exist without darkness?

you do understand that you are asking for scientific proof of translations right? Chi or Qi (energy) or yin-yang which is considered an incomprehensible ideology without definite physical meaning or "western translation". why is a chair called a chair? give me scientific proof of why a chair is a chair, and a rock is a rock.


So how is this different than getting regular check ups at a western doctor? So the TCM folks are just doing it to get money of out people the same as western doctors, right?

technically it isn't. but i would PERSONALLY (there's that key word again) rather drink teas and do acupuncture then drugs to defeat an illness. in fact i would rather beat the illness rather than beat the symptoms.




is this the part where you start talking about how it's all the fault of the jews? Come on, complete the stereotype. Where are my sources for what? That there isn't a conspiracy against TCM?

actually thats YOUR stereotype obviously since you are the one bringing it up again.
and yes i want your sources that TCM is worthless as you seem to think that it is.



then those constant check ups could also be achieved through western doctors too. It's a matter of going to a doctor more often rather than the treatment.

you're right, i never denied this. again, i prefer PERSONALLY TCM, natural remedies etc. over drugs. if you'd prefer drugs then that is your deal. have fun with that.



Yeah, up until the last century you were doing really well if you lived to be 40. If you're all about living naturally you should make sure you shuffle off the mortal coil in the next 10 years or so. Of course if you don't, you have modern medicine to thank for it and not TCM.

again, why is it that TCM can not "modernize" it's treatments? why is it only western medicine? you act like herbologists and natural remedies do not get better with time as well.

check this article out if you like.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_12_63/ai_83076770




again these are my opinions. i base my opinions off of books i read/own and other articles. i 'm not going to debate with you anymore about my beliefes vs. yours. you're not going to convince me that taking a hand full of pills is better than alternatives, any more than i'm going to convince you that there are alternatives to taking handfulls of pills i guess.

i'm actually surprised, not that you are debating again, but for someone who is soooo fucking straightedge, i'd think you would want and be interested in finding alternatives to medication..... hmmm i guess people like you just enjoy picking and choosing which drugs you abstain from.

[xsecx]

evidence for what? you asked where i came to my conclusion and that is where. do i need to draw you a diagram?

so you just trust the books you read? I thought you were all about questioning things? You came to a conclusion without looking into what the books were based on and what tests were performed?





so you can't just go to wal-mart and buy a bunch of drugs? that are mass produced?

sure if you want to self medicate, however you can do the same with herbs. So is your issue with self medication or with western medicine?



yeah, stock herbs, treatments and if you go to the store there are bulk isles of flour and sugar too. but does bulk flour and sugar itself make a cake? no you must mix them and bake it right? are you really this stupid?

so you aren't able to buy herbal remedies that are premixed?




i never said western medicine can't do any of this. you asked what are some of the causes of headaches that TCM treats and i told you. you are the one trying to turn this into a TCM vs. Western Medicine thing. all i said is that i would prefer TCM and Natural Healing over "Medication"

Well no, you actually said that you don't trust western medicine implying that it isn't capable of healing things that TCM can. If it can, then why don't you trust it?




first of all, i don't trust it because i don't trust a bunch of watered down drugs and i don't necessarily feel like paying some quack hundreds of dollars to give me something that most likely will not even work to begin with. these are MY PERSONAL FEELINGS and BELIEFES.
and secondly, i am a great dad, not only because i wont just give my baby any dime a dozen drug on the market, and feed him a bunch of bullshit "artificial ingredients"
but because i have the means, and patience to show him exactly why i feel the way i do. just because i'm not going through my library and re-typing entire books for you to read does not make me a bad father. and thirdly, attack me all you want, but only a piece of shit tries to bring up somebodies family. especially children.

So you'd rather pay some quack to give you some herbs and stick needles in you hundreds of dollars? The problems that exist in western medicine are still present in TCM you just prefer to ignore it in one and emphasize it in the other. Now if you actually had a brain in that empty head of yours you would realize I wasn't bringing anyone into this but you. You are unable to explain why you don't trust something, you just do. Which is the EXACT mindset which results in "just do this because I said so". Now if you can't explain your rational to an adult, are we really supposed to expect you to be able to explain it to a child?




so you're saying that the FDA is not a business? i'm sure it's just a non-profit organization ran by volunteers now? you can think i'm crazy all you want, but you're an imbicile.

Well, by definition it's a regulatory organization and not a business, but hey, I'm the imbecile because I understand what words mean and what organizations do. Do I need to inform you what a business is and then explain in simple words why the FDA doesn't fit the definition or are you smart enough to go look that up yourself? You also like to ignore the fact that the FDA is an US institution however this situation exists everywhere in the western world, so how the FDA to blame for all the other countries?





you say all of this as if the government is really meant for "we the people". mock me all you want, but it doesn't change my beliefes. you can go ahead and keep on trusting everybody because they tell you it's okay if you'd like. i'd rather keep on "questioning authority" personally.


You mean your beliefs that aren't really founded on anything other than paranoid rants about how there is a global conspiracy to poison humanity and keep us all sick? I'm all for questioning authority but if you're going to do it, you need to ask the right questions and you have to consider the source and validity of the statements.






okay, fair enough. but this doesn't show anything that says "western medicine is better than TCM or natural remedies." unless i missed it. and there is nothing in this that implies that TCM and natural remedies/herbology is not also evolving with new scientific methods and studies. therefore, i didn't see anything that suggests that life expectancy is getting longer thanks entirely to western medicine.


Ok, lets play a game where you join the rest of us in reality. What do you think had increased the life expectancy globally if it isn't improved medical treatment and food production? You know the point I was raising in the other discussions you abandoned where your beliefs are based on a reality that never existed? This is one of those cases. You apparently have been living under the incorrect belief that people lived great healthy lives prior to modern food and medicine. The reality however is that they didn't. Now, if you disagree, then please explain why the dramatic increase in life expectancy corresponds DIRECTLY to improvements in western medicine. That being said, how can natural remedies be evolving through new scientific methods? If they were, they wouldn't really be natural would they? Oh shit, they'd become western medicine, since that's actually what western medicine is.






so there is no "scientific proof" that the food we eat gives us Qi (or energy?) and there is no scientific proof that light can not exist without darkness?

you do understand that you are asking for scientific proof of translations right? Chi or Qi (energy) or yin-yang which is considered an incomprehensible ideology without definite physical meaning or "western translation". why is a chair called a chair? give me scientific proof of why a chair is a chair, and a rock is a rock.


So where is the scientific proof then? Food being turned into sugar which get turned into energy isn't the same on any level as qi, now is it? If it is, please demonstrate and enlighten me. I'd like to see how food gets turned into energy that circulates through the body and can become imbalanced. A chair is a chair because it fits the definition of a chair and yes, that can be tested against.




technically it isn't. but i would PERSONALLY (there's that key word again) rather drink teas and do acupuncture then drugs to defeat an illness. in fact i would rather beat the illness rather than beat the symptoms.


Ok, if technically it isn't any different then why do you PERSONALLY not trust western medicine, when it works the same way, but you do trust TCM? How is drinking teas any different than taking drugs?






actually thats YOUR stereotype obviously since you are the one bringing it up again.
and yes i want your sources that TCM is worthless as you seem to think that it is.


I'm bringing what up again? You just said some shit about the new world order and how it exists. You apparently don't have an issue with that site since they talked about ZOG, so yes or no, do you blame the jews for it or not? If you don't, then why wouldn't you have an issue with the site you used for reference? Where did I say that it was worthless? I think that herbs can be used and refined into medicine. You are asking me for sources that prove that there isn't a conspiracy against TCM? So people aren't able to practice it here in the US?




you're right, i never denied this. again, i prefer PERSONALLY TCM, natural remedies etc. over drugs. if you'd prefer drugs then that is your deal. have fun with that.

You do realize that your natural remedies are actually drugs right?




again, why is it that TCM can not "modernize" it's treatments? why is it only western medicine? you act like herbologists and natural remedies do not get better with time as well.

check this article out if you like.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_12_63/ai_83076770

Then it ceases to be tradiitonal and becomes modern and western. Your whole point is that it's worked excellently for over 2000 years, so why would it need to get better?




again these are my opinions. i base my opinions off of books i read/own and other articles. i 'm not going to debate with you anymore about my beliefes vs. yours. you're not going to convince me that taking a hand full of pills is better than alternatives, any more than i'm going to convince you that there are alternatives to taking handfulls of pills i guess.

i'm actually surprised, not that you are debating again, but for someone who is soooo fucking straightedge, i'd think you would want and be interested in finding alternatives to medication..... hmmm i guess people like you just enjoy picking and choosing which drugs you abstain from.

Yeah except your beliefs aren't based in reality. They're based in weird biased conspiracy theories and history that didn't exist. I just think it's funny that you've lied to yourself so much that you're convinced that your herbal remedies aren't medication and aren't drugs. but hey, you tell yourself a lot of lies so it doesn't surprise me.

[sxcwhitegrl]

ok serious question......

if your in constant pain, and the only thing that can help you is pain killers (vicoden, valuum, darvocette, etc.) would you not be considered straight edge because you are trying to live comfortably?

[mouseman004]

ok serious question......

if your in constant pain, and the only thing that can help you is pain killers (vicoden, valuum, darvocette, etc.) would you not be considered straight edge because you are trying to live comfortably?


Would it matter? Nobody should live in pain because they may or may not lose their title of straight edge. If you are against those types of drugs then don't take them, if you are not against those drugs then take them. The title of straight edge shouldnt matter in decisions like that.

[sxcwhitegrl]

i dont like what they do to me and my body but some days im just desperate for comfort and i cant help but take it

i only take them when i absolutely positively have to

[xsecx]

i dont like what they do to me and my body but some days im just desperate for comfort and i cant help but take it

i only take them when i absolutely positively have to

then talk to a doctor about differnt prescriptions to see if there are any other alternatives. given what you've said about yourself it doesn't sound like you have much choice but to take something at least occasionally.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=xsecx]so you just trust the books you read? I thought you were all about questioning things? You came to a conclusion without looking into what the books were based on and what tests were performed?

well i do question things. and i look into things with an open mind. i have read alot of books, and yes they have alot to do with my opinion. i have alot of friends that practice Qi Gong and some TCM, and have been into it for a really long time. and yes i trust them.

i have a really good friend who is HIV positive, and yes he was on western medication for a long time and always felt miserable. when he gave up his meds and switched to Taiji Quan, yoga, Kung fu, TCM and herbal remedies, not only has he felt better but doesn't test positive anymore. he has since married and has a child and neither his wife nor his child are HIV positive.

i watched the birth of my child in a 100% natural setting with absolutely NO drugs. although this is not considered TCM but it is "alternative" to western medication/ treatment.

also check this link out.
http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=40



sure if you want to self medicate, however you can do the same with herbs. So is your issue with self medication or with western medicine?

self medication to you is going to walmart and buying tylenol, self medication to me is buying herbs and doing what a specialist tells you to do with them. so no my problem is not with self medication, it is with western MEDICINE.
and again, this isn't to say you are wrong or i am right, it's only my opinion based on personal situations.

i may think Vegan Reich as a band is better than Floorpunch, do i need scientific studies to back this claim? or is it okay to have an opinion about music, but not my choice of medications?



so you aren't able to buy herbal remedies that are premixed?

yes you can. i'm not saying you can't.




Well no, you actually said that you don't trust western medicine implying that it isn't capable of healing things that TCM can. If it can, then why don't you trust it?

i don't trust western medicine/procedures 100% and if at all possible would choose an "alternative treatment."
for example, child birth. do you understand how unnatural birthing a child in a hospital is compared to homebirthing/ natural birthing? people including western medicine practictioners don't seem to understand, when you pump the mother full of drugs, you are also drugging the child. this makes for an even harder birth. if the child is so drugged up it can't do what it's supposed to do it makes it harder on the mother. did you know that children twist and turn their way out of the "birthing canal" but when drugged are unable to twist and turn the right ways?
these are just small examples that go completely against the nature of birth.
now i'm sure you will have rebuttals to this maybe even a "wikepedia" link and that's cool, that's your opinion and i'm okay with that.
these are just some reasons why i don't trust it.

that's not to say that if i broke my arm i wouldn't go to a doctor. and would prefer rubbing ground up herbs and mud medicate it like they do on the movies. as much as i prefer "alternative" treatments, i'm not crazy.... (as much as you like to say/think i am)


So you'd rather pay some quack to give you some herbs and stick needles in you hundreds of dollars? The problems that exist in western medicine are still present in TCM you just prefer to ignore it in one and emphasize it in the other.

yes i would much rather try and treat something naturally before dropping in on some chemical based drugs.
i agree that TCM may not be the answer for everything, but at the same time i'm willing to try. because face it, western medication may not be the answer for everything either. i'm not pitting one against the other, you are. i'm simply voicing my opinion.

it's not that i "ignore it in one and emphasize it in the other" it's that i would rather try the more natural way first. call me a tree hugging hippie.
of course, treating a flu with herbal teas, and massage/accupuncture is not "crazy" it's just not going to walmart and fueling up on nyquil..... to me THAT's crazy.



Now if you actually had a brain in that empty head of yours you would realize I wasn't bringing anyone into this but you.

actually, when you say i'm not being or am not making a "good father" that's bringing up the way i interact, raise, treat, teach, support and care for my son. so that is bringing up my family affairs. which is not only talking about myself, but my family too.



You are unable to explain why you don't trust something, you just do. Which is the EXACT mindset which results in "just do this because I said so".

this is wrong, i can explain why i don't trust something. you just can't comprehend somebody having a difference of opinion. when my son get's old enough to ask "why i prefer acupuncture/tcm?" i can take him to an acupuncturist so he can ask questions that i can't answer. i can take him to a library, show him my books etc. i can talk to him in an "interacting" way instead of wak message boards where he can see body language, emphasis in words, sarcasm, joking etc.

and above all of that, i am okay with my son having a different opinion and will not debate with him about EVERY single topic. after all this is raising a child with his own mind, thoughts,opinions, feelings etc. and not some fucking Xmessage boardX.



Now if you can't explain your rational to an adult, are we really supposed to expect you to be able to explain it to a child?

the problem is not my explaining it's the "irrationality" of the so-called "adult"




Well, by definition it's a regulatory organization and not a business, but hey, I'm the imbecile because I understand what words mean and what organizations do. Do I need to inform you what a business is and then explain in simple words why the FDA doesn't fit the definition or are you smart enough to go look that up yourself? You also like to ignore the fact that the FDA is an US institution however this situation exists everywhere in the western world, so how the FDA to blame for all the other countries?

so i'll ask you again, do FDA WORKERS not get paid? or are they all not for profit volunteers? i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they get paid. which makes it a business. here's a link you can go about getting a J.O.B. with the FDA with a paycheck, bennefits, and incentive packages.... sounds like a fucking business to me.
http://www.fda.gov/jobs/default.htm







You mean your beliefs that aren't really founded on anything other than paranoid rants about how there is a global conspiracy to poison humanity and keep us all sick? I'm all for questioning authority but if you're going to do it, you need to ask the right questions and you have to consider the source and validity of the statements.

i agree, i've talked alot with Qi Gong teachers, about Yin/yang Qi i've asked questions and got the answers from my former Sifu who practiced Qi Gong for over 40 years. so yes i'll trust him.
paranoid rants? about the NWO? it's not paranoia the NWO has been talked about for 15 years by "government officials". and about the ZOG/Jew thing, YOU are the one stereotyping as i do not hate Jews. i'm not a fan of Zionists which are two seperate things if you knew anything about anything.






Ok, lets play a game where you join the rest of us in reality. What do you think had increased the life expectancy globally if it isn't improved medical treatment and food production?

well "improved medical treatment and food production" isn't something i would go patting the western medicines back over. don't get me wrong there have been advancements/progression but there has been advancements/progression in TCM, and other "alternative" medicines as well.

i also give alot of credit to exercise and alot of activities that are pretty new to the "u.s." like Taiji Chuan, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kung Fu etc.
you can go to pretty much any Gym now days and find a watered down TaiJi Chuan class.


You know the point I was raising in the other discussions you abandoned where your beliefs are based on a reality that never existed? This is one of those cases. You apparently have been living under the incorrect belief that people lived great healthy lives prior to modern food and medicine. The reality however is that they didn't.

the other discussions got a little boring to me, and i will eventually go back to them. i'm unable to debate every little thing till the wheels fall off. especially when the person i am debating with finds the stupid things like..."so... do you or do you not agree with smoking weed?" when i've specifically answered that question,but he (meaning you) keeps asking it just re-worded.

the reality is that before "modern food and medicine" people weren't hooked up to machines to breath. people weren't relying on suppressive drugs to go through their day to day routine. foods weren't packed with mind/body altering toxins like artificial foods/colorings, etc.

and although people may live longer, it doesn't mean it's natural.... i'm okay with dying younger than 100. i am not a selfish person. i believe in Jannah and am not entirely attached to this world.


Now, if you disagree, then please explain why the dramatic increase in life expectancy corresponds DIRECTLY to improvements in western medicine. That being said, how can natural remedies be evolving through new scientific methods? If they were, they wouldn't really be natural would they? Oh shit, they'd become western medicine, since that's actually what western medicine is.

the majority of chinese herbal shops have herbs that are grown "organically" Free from pesticides, irradiation and ozone treatment, sulfur, gasses and other chemicals. this is not the case with hospitals/doctor offices or OTC drugs from walmart.
although modern day scientific methods may or may not affect TCM practitioners. there are still herbalists that use "traditional" methods.

and besides that, just because there are scientific studies, doesn't change the fact that TCM is still TCM. it just means there have been modern day tests/studies of specific herbal remedies. this does not change the method of treatment with herbal remedies. it just changes the studies.

ibuprofen for example is the same ingredients... although it can be prescribed in a lesser dosage, it doesn't change the ingredients to fit the patient.
TCM doctors can mix ingredients to compliment the balance/imbalance of a specific persons chemicals within their bodies and have the same effect as ibuprofen for headaches/pain swelling etc.

western medicine is more than just herbs with scientific studies by the way.




So where is the scientific proof then? Food being turned into sugar which get turned into energy isn't the same on any level as qi, now is it? If it is, please demonstrate and enlighten me. I'd like to see how food gets turned into energy that circulates through the body and can become imbalanced.

so now you are claimig that although you admit that food turns to sugar, that turns into energy, but now it doesn't flow through the body? how so?

and i am not the one who brought Qi into this specific conversation anyway.
but since you do insist on talking about it, Qi is "energy" and how do you justify saying we don't have energy coursing through our bodies? and how do you justify saying our "energies" can not become imbalanced?
below is a link to a good website that talks about different types or classifications of Qi. and where it comes from like FOOD. but i guess you can email them to debate whether or not the energy from food is the same as "Qi".
http://www.acupuncture.com/index.html



A chair is a chair because it fits the definition of a chair and yes, that can be tested against.

and Qi is energy because that is a "translation" of it. and yes, it also can be tested against. example, food and it's bennefits for/against our bodies.



Ok, if technically it isn't any different then why do you PERSONALLY not trust western medicine, when it works the same way, but you do trust TCM? How is drinking teas any different than taking drugs?

one because i don't trust the FDA. although you can't comprehend this, i feel that the drugs we get from FDA approvals are watered down, and designed to meet FDA requirements as a way for stringing sick people along to make money from. for example the FDA approved drugs that my above mentioned friend/brother with HIV that got better with the switch from FDA approved western meds, to TCM and other herbal remedies.
secondly, most (if not all) FDA approved drugs are animal tested. and not only do i not agree with animal testing, i don't trust it as a reliable form of testing for the safety of humans.
these are a couple of my PERSONAL reasons. with that said, again, i am not saying that western medicine is worthless. just not my cup of tea. (no pun intended)

and what's with the question: "how is drinking teas any different than taking drugs?"...
all i can say to that, is think about what you are asking here for a second...................
done thinking? good, now i'll ask you how isn't it different?




I'm bringing what up again? You just said some shit about the new world order and how it exists. You apparently don't have an issue with that site since they talked about ZOG, so yes or no, do you blame the jews for it or not?

you are bringing up ZOG and Jews. and again, since you don't seem to know this already, there is a difference between zionists and Jews. but since we're on the topic where does that link mention anything about ZOG?
and i used this link because the mans credentials are highly respected by alot of people.
http://www.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2653


If you don't, then why wouldn't you have an issue with the site you used for reference?

i used the site because the man was harrassed by his "alternative" methods and ideas by the FDA.


Where did I say that it was worthless?

if it's not worthless then why are you arguing against it?


I think that herbs can be used and refined into medicine.

why must they be refined? so you admit that herbs can be used, but herbal remedies are not medicine? they must be refined?
and are you disputing accupuncture, accupressure, yoga, taiji chuan, and other "alternative methods?" and if so, why?


You are asking me for sources that prove that there isn't a conspiracy against TCM? So people aren't able to practice it here in the US?

in the past, NO. they weren't. this was a part of the European invasion. indigenous Indian cultures were not allowed to practice their medicinal practices. for example, the label "witch doctor" was not an actual witch, that happened to be a doctor. it was a doctor that used herbal remedies. the "witch hunts" were not hunts against actual witches that melted when they got buckets of water thrown on them, they were not green and they were not looking for the magical ruby slippers. the "witch hunts" were capital punishment for herbologists.




You do realize that your natural remedies are actually drugs right?

well in context of the conversation we are talking about "herbal" remedies vs. "drugs" in a western medicine setting. so to make it easier i have shortened "remedies in a western medicine setting" or "western medicine" to drugs. and "herbal remedies" to "TCM" (in most cases.) but thank you for making that obvious but apparantly needed side-note.

so although drugs can have herbs in them, until they are "refined" as you put it they are still herbs. and yes "drugs" is defined as something that treats an illness. or a medicinal substance.





Then it ceases to be tradiitonal and becomes modern and western. Your whole point is that it's worked excellently for over 2000 years, so why would it need to get better?

because humans have the ability of progression. surprised you didn't know this. and my point wasn't that it doesn't need to get better. i am a fan of not being sick. so if it can be better i'm all for it. my point is that it's an excellent alternative to taking drugs that are for one, tested on animals. and two that are watered down remedies. and third, TCM gives the patient other alternatives to even herbal remedies, such as accupuncture, accupressure and exercise routines, change in daily habbits. although western doctors may also suggest a change in diet/daily routines.... but they still go by the "food pyramid" and most doctors automatically discount an ital diet without even knowing what it is.





Yeah except your beliefs aren't based in reality. They're based in weird biased conspiracy theories and history that didn't exist.

well, if you call natural childbirth not being based on reality when she easily could have been pumped full of epidurals and other drugs. and witnessing my friend go from pills to herbal remedies and do a complete 180 not being based on reality then fine. i can't dispute that i can only relay the stories.

and um.... history did exist. what history are you talking about that didn't exist? do you mean, before there were cities, and hospitals and ambulances people relied on herbal remedies and survived for years without the use of "western medicine?"

and about the conspiracy theories comment, you can have that one. although i don't know how you can dispute the 15 year old NWO planning/ theory, i'm not going to debate it with you.


I just think it's funny that you've lied to yourself so much that you're convinced that your herbal remedies aren't medication and aren't drugs. but hey, you tell yourself a lot of lies so it doesn't surprise me.

i never said they weren't "drugs" i've just shortened the descriptions. i was under the assumption you knew this. since i do understand the meaning of the word "drug".
and i never once said herbal remedies were not "medication".
but hey, you get alot of things twisted, so it doesn't surprise me that you focus on the dumb shit.

[mouseman004]

[QUOTE]i have a really good friend who is HIV positive, and yes he was on western medication for a long time and always felt miserable. when he gave up his meds and switched to Taiji Quan, yoga, Kung fu, TCM and herbal remedies, not only has he felt better but doesn't test positive anymore. he has since married and has a child and neither his wife nor his child are HIV positive.


I find it impossible to find myself beleiving that TCM was able to cure something that is absolutely incurable.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=Tahir]


I find it impossible to find myself beleiving that TCM was able to cure something that is absolutely incurable.


well i never said he was "cured" i said he doesn't test positive anymore. and if you re-read my statement i said "i have a friend who IS HIV positive." not "who was."
i suppose you think that the world famous Earvin "Magic" Johnson was never HIV positive?

[xsecx]

well i do question things. and i look into things with an open mind. i have read alot of books, and yes they have alot to do with my opinion. i have alot of friends that practice Qi Gong and some TCM, and have been into it for a really long time. and yes i trust them.

i have a really good friend who is HIV positive, and yes he was on western medication for a long time and always felt miserable. when he gave up his meds and switched to Taiji Quan, yoga, Kung fu, TCM and herbal remedies, not only has he felt better but doesn't test positive anymore. he has since married and has a child and neither his wife nor his child are HIV positive.

i watched the birth of my child in a 100% natural setting with absolutely NO drugs. although this is not considered TCM but it is "alternative" to western medication/ treatment.

also check this link out.
http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=40


So you trust things based on anecdotes and not any legitimate actual scientific studies? Do you honestly expect anyone here to believe that you know someone who has cured HIV with any method let alone what you just said? Now I can believe he was misdiagnosed, but cured? There's no fucking way. You can believe what you want, but it doesn't have any value until some non biased source can test it and verify it. Everything you've listed hasn't been from nonbiased sources.





self medication to you is going to walmart and buying tylenol, self medication to me is buying herbs and doing what a specialist tells you to do with them. so no my problem is not with self medication, it is with western MEDICINE.
and again, this isn't to say you are wrong or i am right, it's only my opinion based on personal situations.

i may think Vegan Reich as a band is better than Floorpunch, do i need scientific studies to back this claim? or is it okay to have an opinion about music, but not my choice of medications?

You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. The fact that you have a specialist telling you what to do with them means it's not self medication. Now if you're telling me that if you go to an herbalist and they tell you once "here take this when you get a headache" and then each time you get a headache you take it, then yes, it's the same. But then that also contradicts your whole thing that they treat the illness and not the symptoms. So how exactly is your problem with western medicine when the same problem exists with TCM? So music and medicine are the same? I mean shit, one you just listen to the other could kill you. Why wouldn't you want to be sure that what you're taking is safe and effective? Now how can you be sure of that without scientific studies?



yes you can. i'm not saying you can't.

But you just redefined self medication to indicate that you can't.





i don't trust western medicine/procedures 100% and if at all possible would choose an "alternative treatment."
for example, child birth. do you understand how unnatural birthing a child in a hospital is compared to homebirthing/ natural birthing? people including western medicine practictioners don't seem to understand, when you pump the mother full of drugs, you are also drugging the child. this makes for an even harder birth. if the child is so drugged up it can't do what it's supposed to do it makes it harder on the mother. did you know that children twist and turn their way out of the "birthing canal" but when drugged are unable to twist and turn the right ways?
these are just small examples that go completely against the nature of birth.
now i'm sure you will have rebuttals to this maybe even a "wikepedia" link and that's cool, that's your opinion and i'm okay with that.
these are just some reasons why i don't trust it.


ok. homebirthing exists in western medicine and has for a really long time. I mean shit, lamaze is western. So this illustrates what exactly is wrong with western medicine? Are you going to try and convince use that TCM doesn't have an herbal pain reliever that is used during child birth? If so, then shit you shouldn't trust it either because they're drugging the mother and child too.



that's not to say that if i broke my arm i wouldn't go to a doctor. and would prefer rubbing ground up herbs and mud medicate it like they do on the movies. as much as i prefer "alternative" treatments, i'm not crazy.... (as much as you like to say/think i am)


so being unnatural is ok then? Why wouldn't you get treated the TCM way for a broken bone?



yes i would much rather try and treat something naturally before dropping in on some chemical based drugs.
i agree that TCM may not be the answer for everything, but at the same time i'm willing to try. because face it, western medication may not be the answer for everything either. i'm not pitting one against the other, you are. i'm simply voicing my opinion.

it's not that i "ignore it in one and emphasize it in the other" it's that i would rather try the more natural way first. call me a tree hugging hippie.
of course, treating a flu with herbal teas, and massage/accupuncture is not "crazy" it's just not going to walmart and fueling up on nyquil..... to me THAT's crazy.


Yes, and your opinion is that you don't trust western medicine, pitting it against TCM. The thing is every problem you have with western medicine exists within TCM. You want to self medicate with herbs and massage and call that good, but taking nyquil is somehow bad. That's the point, It's the same fucking thing, so if you don't trust one you shouldn't trust the other because the problems exist in both, especially since the problem appears to be with the person who is sick and not the doctors or the drug companies.





actually, when you say i'm not being or am not making a "good father" that's bringing up the way i interact, raise, treat, teach, support and care for my son. so that is bringing up my family affairs. which is not only talking about myself, but my family too.

the way YOU interact being the point. You can twist this all you want, but it's still left you in the middle being a dumbass.




this is wrong, i can explain why i don't trust something. you just can't comprehend somebody having a difference of opinion. when my son get's old enough to ask "why i prefer acupuncture/tcm?" i can take him to an acupuncturist so he can ask questions that i can't answer. i can take him to a library, show him my books etc. i can talk to him in an "interacting" way instead of wak message boards where he can see body language, emphasis in words, sarcasm, joking etc.

and above all of that, i am okay with my son having a different opinion and will not debate with him about EVERY single topic. after all this is raising a child with his own mind, thoughts,opinions, feelings etc. and not some fucking Xmessage boardX.

You said you couldn't explain it though, so how is it wrong? You haven't been able to explain why you don't trust it, but you do trust TCM. So good luck trying to explain it to a kid and not "some fucking Xmessage boardX




the problem is not my explaining it's the "irrationality" of the so-called "adult"

Yeah dude, I'm the one with the conspiracy theories, inconsistent beliefs and blind "faith" in things. oh shit, that's you.





so i'll ask you again, do FDA WORKERS not get paid? or are they all not for profit volunteers? i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they get paid. which makes it a business. here's a link you can go about getting a J.O.B. with the FDA with a paycheck, bennefits, and incentive packages.... sounds like a fucking business to me.
http://www.fda.gov/jobs/default.htm

So anything that pays people to work there are businesses? so the police, military, red cross, senate, house, schools are all businesses? Do you have any idea how much of an idiot you come across as?






i agree, i've talked alot with Qi Gong teachers, about Yin/yang Qi i've asked questions and got the answers from my former Sifu who practiced Qi Gong for over 40 years. so yes i'll trust him.
paranoid rants? about the NWO? it's not paranoia the NWO has been talked about for 15 years by "government officials". and about the ZOG/Jew thing, YOU are the one stereotyping as i do not hate Jews. i'm not a fan of Zionists which are two seperate things if you knew anything about anything.

Your Qi Gong teachers talked to you about the global conspiracy against TCM?
What government officials? What is your version of the new world order then, since there are so many. Considering you'd be pretty hard pressed to find non Zionist jews, how are they separate things? So you hate zionists?






well "improved medical treatment and food production" isn't something i would go patting the western medicines back over. don't get me wrong there have been advancements/progression but there has been advancements/progression in TCM, and other "alternative" medicines as well.

i also give alot of credit to exercise and alot of activities that are pretty new to the "u.s." like Taiji Chuan, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kung Fu etc.
you can go to pretty much any Gym now days and find a watered down TaiJi Chuan class.

So I'll ask you again, since you know you can't answer it, "What do you think had increased the life expectancy globally if it isn't improved medical treatment and food production?" Are you trying to say that you think TCM and other "alternative" medicines and martial arts are the reason for increased life expectancy globally? Do you honestly believe that? If so, how do you explain the increase of life expectancy in places like China and Thailand? There is a DIRECT correlation between the advancements of food production quality and medicine to GLOBAL welfare.




the other discussions got a little boring to me, and i will eventually go back to them. i'm unable to debate every little thing till the wheels fall off. especially when the person i am debating with finds the stupid things like..."so... do you or do you not agree with smoking weed?" when i've specifically answered that question,but he (meaning you) keeps asking it just re-worded.

Finds stupid things like you contradicting yourself? Your beliefs are inconsistant and founded on an alterative reality that never existed.



the reality is that before "modern food and medicine" people weren't hooked up to machines to breath. people weren't relying on suppressive drugs to go through their day to day routine. foods weren't packed with mind/body altering toxins like artificial foods/colorings, etc.

and although people may live longer, it doesn't mean it's natural.... i'm okay with dying younger than 100. i am not a selfish person. i believe in Jannah and am not entirely attached to this world.


They were also dying in their 30's and 40's from simple infections and malnutrition. People were dying from famines regularly. You like to ignore that reality and then jump ahead 40 years to people who are elderly and point to them as living unnaturally but you're more than happy to take those healthy years in between. You want to paint this picture of unnatural and bad, but you're more than happy to take advantage of those unnatural things that benefit your fucked up world view.




the majority of chinese herbal shops have herbs that are grown "organically" Free from pesticides, irradiation and ozone treatment, sulfur, gasses and other chemicals. this is not the case with hospitals/doctor offices or OTC drugs from walmart.
although modern day scientific methods may or may not affect TCM practitioners. there are still herbalists that use "traditional" methods.


and organic is a step backwards and not a step forward. so the idea that this is an advancement is really funny.



and besides that, just because there are scientific studies, doesn't change the fact that TCM is still TCM. it just means there have been modern day tests/studies of specific herbal remedies. this does not change the method of treatment with herbal remedies. it just changes the studies.

ibuprofen for example is the same ingredients... although it can be prescribed in a lesser dosage, it doesn't change the ingredients to fit the patient.
TCM doctors can mix ingredients to compliment the balance/imbalance of a specific persons chemicals within their bodies and have the same effect as ibuprofen for headaches/pain swelling etc.

You just said that they had made advancements? Which way is it now? is it traditional or is it modern? If it's modern then what are they doing that is any different than "western" medicine? How many blood tests have you taken with a TCM doctor? If you do, then how do they read the chemicals in a persons body and what levels they are at?



western medicine is more than just herbs with scientific studies by the way.

Yes, and TCM is just herbs and acupuncture. What's your point?





so now you are claimig that although you admit that food turns to sugar, that turns into energy, but now it doesn't flow through the body? how so?

and i am not the one who brought Qi into this specific conversation anyway.
but since you do insist on talking about it, Qi is "energy" and how do you justify saying we don't have energy coursing through our bodies? and how do you justify saying our "energies" can not become imbalanced?
below is a link to a good website that talks about different types or classifications of Qi. and where it comes from like FOOD. but i guess you can email them to debate whether or not the energy from food is the same as "Qi".
http://www.acupuncture.com/index.html


So all forms of energy are the same and that's it's a catch all term. that food being turned into energy is somehow the same thing as "energy" flowing through your body, but not blood, that can be blocked or imbalanced. Qi and the energy created by food aren't the same. One is an incontrollable reflex, the other is a spiritual concept.

http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html




and Qi is energy because that is a "translation" of it. and yes, it also can be tested against. example, food and it's bennefits for/against our bodies.

It's not a translation of it, because the concept of qi doesn't fit the definition of energy, especially not the energy that is derived from food. If it can be tested against, then please show me some examples. How does food become qi? Notice I didn't say energy. I want to know how something goes from food and then gets converted into qi that flows through the body and how it flows through the body.





one because i don't trust the FDA. although you can't comprehend this, i feel that the drugs we get from FDA approvals are watered down, and designed to meet FDA requirements as a way for stringing sick people along to make money from. for example the FDA approved drugs that my above mentioned friend/brother with HIV that got better with the switch from FDA approved western meds, to TCM and other herbal remedies.
secondly, most (if not all) FDA approved drugs are animal tested. and not only do i not agree with animal testing, i don't trust it as a reliable form of testing for the safety of humans.
these are a couple of my PERSONAL reasons. with that said, again, i am not saying that western medicine is worthless. just not my cup of tea. (no pun intended)

But it is your cup of tea when it's convenient for you. Your reasons for not trusting the FDA aren't actually based on anything but paranoid conspiracy theories. If the FDA was all about keeping people sick, then wouldn't that go against the rest of the governments agenda of keeping people able to work so they can be taxed? You also keep ignoring the fact that the FDA only exists in the US, so why don't you trust drugs from other countries?



and what's with the question: "how is drinking teas any different than taking drugs?"...
all i can say to that, is think about what you are asking here for a second...................
done thinking? good, now i'll ask you how isn't it different?

it isn't any different which is why I asked you the question to begin with. Now you get to think about it some more and get back to me.




you are bringing up ZOG and Jews. and again, since you don't seem to know this already, there is a difference between zionists and Jews. but since we're on the topic where does that link mention anything about ZOG?
and i used this link because the mans credentials are highly respected by alot of people.
http://www.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2653


Uh, http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/protocols_of_zion.html And yes or no, do you blame the jews for the new world order or not?

and you mean this guy? http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/nhf.html





i used the site because the man was harrassed by his "alternative" methods and ideas by the FDA.


You mean like selling people cancer fighting tea that was actually 99.4 percent water and a brownish sludge composed mainly of coliform bacteria? man, fuck the FDA!




if it's not worthless then why are you arguing against it?

Because I don't think it's actually been tested and proved to be effective or not.




why must they be refined? so you admit that herbs can be used, but herbal remedies are not medicine? they must be refined?
and are you disputing accupuncture, accupressure, yoga, taiji chuan, and other "alternative methods?" and if so, why?


Because that's what medical drugs are, refined and improved things from nature? Where did I say that herbal remedies are anything other than drugs? Am I disputing acupuncture, etc in terms of what?




in the past, NO. they weren't. this was a part of the European invasion. indigenous Indian cultures were not allowed to practice their medicinal practices. for example, the label "witch doctor" was not an actual witch, that happened to be a doctor. it was a doctor that used herbal remedies. the "witch hunts" were not hunts against actual witches that melted when they got buckets of water thrown on them, they were not green and they were not looking for the magical ruby slippers. the "witch hunts" were capital punishment for herbologists.


And when was the last case of this? Holy shit, the FDA did all this? fuck.





well in context of the conversation we are talking about "herbal" remedies vs. "drugs" in a western medicine setting. so to make it easier i have shortened "remedies in a western medicine setting" or "western medicine" to drugs. and "herbal remedies" to "TCM" (in most cases.) but thank you for making that obvious but apparantly needed side-note.

so although drugs can have herbs in them, until they are "refined" as you put it they are still herbs. and yes "drugs" is defined as something that treats an illness. or a medicinal substance.


So what makes herbs==good but drugs==bad?





because humans have the ability of progression. surprised you didn't know this. and my point wasn't that it doesn't need to get better. i am a fan of not being sick. so if it can be better i'm all for it. my point is that it's an excellent alternative to taking drugs that are for one, tested on animals. and two that are watered down remedies. and third, TCM gives the patient other alternatives to even herbal remedies, such as accupuncture, accupressure and exercise routines, change in daily habbits. although western doctors may also suggest a change in diet/daily routines.... but they still go by the "food pyramid" and most doctors automatically discount an ital diet without even knowing what it is.


So a more refined product is watered down? Traditional doesn't mean progession. This is the point you fail to comprehend.For something to be traditional it can't really progress. Once it progresses it becomes modern it ceases to be traditional.





well, if you call natural childbirth not being based on reality when she easily could have been pumped full of epidurals and other drugs. and witnessing my friend go from pills to herbal remedies and do a complete 180 not being based on reality then fine. i can't dispute that i can only relay the stories.

and um.... history did exist. what history are you talking about that didn't exist? do you mean, before there were cities, and hospitals and ambulances people relied on herbal remedies and survived for years without the use of "western medicine?"


natural childbirth isn't a TCM concept though. The made up history that you have based your beliefs on where people lived better healthier lives prior to the past 100 years and all the advances that came in those years. The fact that you make the statement " before there were cities, and hospitals and ambulances people relied on herbal remedies and survived for years without the use of "western medicine?" just illustrates the point. The lives before the use of western medicine were miserable and short.



and about the conspiracy theories comment, you can have that one. although i don't know how you can dispute the 15 year old NWO planning/ theory, i'm not going to debate it with you.

because it's nothing more than the paranoid rant of crazy people?




i never said they weren't "drugs" i've just shortened the descriptions. i was under the assumption you knew this. since i do understand the meaning of the word "drug".
and i never once said herbal remedies were not "medication".
but hey, you get alot of things twisted, so it doesn't surprise me that you focus on the dumb shit.
You were trying to compare and constrast them with "drugs" as if they are somehow different, when they're not. Hell most of the time it's the same substance just in different amounts. This just makes the point that it's all the same shit and you just want to have a problem with one but not the other when it's basically the same.

[mouseman004]

[QUOTE=mouseman004]


well i never said he was "cured" i said he doesn't test positive anymore. and if you re-read my statement i said "i have a friend who IS HIV positive." not "who was."
i suppose you think that the world famous Earvin "Magic" Johnson was never HIV positive?


My point is, you don't just suddenly wake up one morning and suddenly not be HIV positive. Being HIV positive doesnt mean you have AIDS so you can live for a very long time while being HIV positive (as is the cast with magic johnson), but it never actually goes away.

[Tahir]

[QUOTE=Tahir]


My point is, you don't just suddenly wake up one morning and suddenly not be HIV positive. Being HIV positive doesnt mean you have AIDS so you can live for a very long time while being HIV positive (as is the cast with magic johnson), but it never actually goes away.

you're right, and you assume that i am claiming he just woke up one day and was miraculously "cured".
this is/was a long process for him. and i agree that the virus is within your chemical make up, or in other words you still have HIV, but it is not always detectable. which is the case with Magic Johnson. and my friend, Najwan Askari, if you'd like you can look for his record "destroy babylon" that talks a little about this.

my point was that while using "western medicnie" not only was HIV detectable, but he was miserable. he was on all sorts of meds, and looked sick. and after the change to "alternative" methods, he made a 180. is not miserable, doesn't look sick, and has a family.

like i said, i don't expect anybody to believe this, which is why i din't bring this up in the beginning, but since i was asked why i believe TCM works, i shared the story.

and again, it's okay that you don't believe me, or have different opinions. i'm not trying to argue you. i'm simply saying that i believe in different methods of treating illnesses.
peace.
-Tahir.

[sxcwhitegrl]

then talk to a doctor about differnt prescriptions to see if there are any other alternatives. given what you've said about yourself it doesn't sound like you have much choice but to take something at least occasionally.

we have tried all sorts of drugs for pain none of them seem to work. the only thing that does seem to work and get me comfortable enough to sleep is the pain killers....

about TCM.....i believe that eating healthy and getting enough sleep has a lot to do with it but accupuncture and all that other stuff i think is total shit. no offense watsoever, but i have tried acupuncture i have tried massages i have tried almost ever rememdy in the book and none of them seem to be helping me and my pain. when a person is in chronic pain they become desperate. i have tried some off the wall stuff that my doctor had reccomended and it still doesnt work.

my advice, just grit your teeth and bear it. I do it everyday and it doesnt bother me. pain is good, it lets you know you are alive. but on the other hand most people are pussys and take a pill for every little ache and pain. (major venting, sorry guys)

[Tahir]

So you trust things based on anecdotes and not any legitimate actual scientific studies? Do you honestly expect anyone here to believe that you know someone who has cured HIV with any method let alone what you just said? Now I can believe he was misdiagnosed, but cured? There's no fucking way. You can believe what you want, but it doesn't have any value until some non biased source can test it and verify it. Everything you've listed hasn't been from nonbiased sources.

again, i never said he was "cured" just that he is no longer testing positive. and if he were "misdiagnosed" that was western medicine that misdiagnosed him. so are you saying that you have complete and an unquestioning trust in methods that often misdiagnose people and have them PAYING for drugs for years?

and again, i'm not trying to convert you, i'm answering your question about "how i came to my conclusion and OPINION."

and are you looking for an unbiased source like "the skeptics dictionary?" yeah, really unbiased.




You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. The fact that you have a specialist telling you what to do with them means it's not self medication. Now if you're telling me that if you go to an herbalist and they tell you once "here take this when you get a headache" and then each time you get a headache you take it, then yes, it's the same. But then that also contradicts your whole thing that they treat the illness and not the symptoms.

again, do i need to draw you a digram? i choose "alternative" methods because that's what i choose. that's all there is to it. i've tried both and i feel that alternative methods work better for me...
each time you get a headache could be from different imbalances. therefore you get treated for THAT imbalance. so yes it is different for everytime. although you could have a stock herb and try it, but it doesn't mean it will work. just like in western med. you could have a cabinet full of tylenol, but just because you take some doesn't mean your headache will go away, if for example you are getting headaches because your back is misaligned.


So how exactly is your problem with western medicine when the same problem exists with TCM?

because i've found it to work better for me. plus i've already told you that most if not all western meds are tested on animals. so that right there is enough for me to try "alternatives".


So music and medicine are the same? I mean shit, one you just listen to the other could kill you. Why wouldn't you want to be sure that what you're taking is safe and effective? Now how can you be sure of that without scientific studies?

you mean you need ANOTHER diagram? yes obviously i know that music and medication are "different" but the ability to have different opinions on which you like better is the same.


But you just redefined self medication to indicate that you can't.

umm... no i didn't.






ok. homebirthing exists in western medicine and has for a really long time. I mean shit, lamaze is western. So this illustrates what exactly is wrong with western medicine?

i'm talking about epidurals smart guy, i'm talking about doctors waltzing in like they own the place, sticking their fingers in the womans vagina and moon walking out of the room, for somebody else to waltz right in and do the same. i'm talking about the atmosphere of western medicine in child birth.

lamaze also teaches to take short quick breaths and push counting to 10, which causes a woman to tear, and is more painful then letting the baby come when it's ready. hospitals don't care if the baby is okay, they want you to come in, push your baby out so they can go to the next lady. it's not the same with home-birthing scenarios.


Are you going to try and convince use that TCM doesn't have an herbal pain reliever that is used during child birth? If so, then shit you shouldn't trust it either because they're drugging the mother and child too.

i'm not talking about TCM, i'm talking about childbirth.




so being unnatural is ok then? Why wouldn't you get treated the TCM way for a broken bone?

it's not about being natural vs. unnatural. it's about casting a broken arm.




Yes, and your opinion is that you don't trust western medicine, pitting it against TCM. The thing is every problem you have with western medicine exists within TCM.

having a different opinion is not pitting one against the other. it's debating my opinion that is pitting one against the other.
so now vivisection is a TCM thing?


You want to self medicate with herbs and massage and call that good, but taking nyquil is somehow bad.

i never said it was "bad" why is it so wrong to choose massage or accupuncture over nyquil? these are two "alternative methods" that do not require consuming ANY toxins/chemicals or anything for that matter. so if it works, why not utilize it?


That's the point, It's the same fucking thing, so if you don't trust one you shouldn't trust the other because the problems exist in both, especially since the problem appears to be with the person who is sick and not the doctors or the drug companies.

but it's not the same fucking thing. accupuncture is definately NOT the same thing as taking drugs, herbal or otherwise.





the way YOU interact being the point. You can twist this all you want, but it's still left you in the middle being a dumbass.

okay, i'm the dumbass that believes that massage and accupuncture are the "same" as drugs..... wow.




You said you couldn't explain it though, so how is it wrong? You haven't been able to explain why you don't trust it, but you do trust TCM. So good luck trying to explain it to a kid and not "some fucking Xmessage boardX

how do you figure i haven't been able to explain it? you just can't comprehend it. you have this ego problem that only wants to debate EVERY single issue that anybody brings up on your stupid forum. you can't comprehend that people have different opinions, and when you ask "where they get their opinions" as if it's any of your business to begin with, you don't "buy it". obviously people in my life are going to help shape my opinions about things and i'm not a liar, so if i say a friend helped his situation with herbal remedies better than he did with western remedies, than either take it or leave it. it's okay with me if you'd prefer western methods. it's not affecting me either way.






Yeah dude, I'm the one with the conspiracy theories, inconsistent beliefs and blind "faith" in things. oh shit, that's you.

if you count inconsistancies as being I personally do not smoke marijuana, but i could care less if bob marley did. than cool.
your single issue mindset of "black/white" can't comprehend different scenarios and paths others have taken. and this is the exact mindset that has given "straightedge" such a negative following of brain dead losers.





So anything that pays people to work there are businesses?

technically yes.



so the police, military, red cross, senate, house, schools are all businesses? Do you have any idea how much of an idiot you come across as?

so.... you're telling me that Government is not a business???? politics are not business?
if this is what you are getting at, first of all, i feel sorry for you. and secondly, no wonder the world is in such a fucked up state with brain-dead idiots like you walking around like zombies.





Your Qi Gong teachers talked to you about the global conspiracy against TCM?

no, Yin Yang and Qi Gong, and yes a little about TCM. but not necessarily about "global conspiracies"


What government officials?

maybe you forgot or never heard of the world wide NWO speach Bush senior gave in 1990?



What is your version of the new world order then, since there are so many. Considering you'd be pretty hard pressed to find non Zionist jews, how are they separate things?

what is my version? to be honest i'm not big on NWO theories. i don't doubt they exist, but i am not personally invested on researching all of the potential "families" that may or may not be conspiring against the rest of us to control the entire world.

then i'm guessing you've never known any Jews?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html
just one of many "Jews against zionism" websites.



So you hate zionists?

this is a pretty complex question. although on the surface it appears to be pretty straight forward, the answer is not. first of all, i never said i "hate zionists". with that said, i believe that Jews should have a place to govern as a sovereign state. this is not to be confused as me believing that they (the zionists) have the right to kick Palestinians out of their own homes.... this is comparable to what if all African americans were to go back to Africa and kicking all Africans out of their homes and attempting to declare a sovereign state. this is oppressive, and i am against oppression..
there are Jews living in Israel now that refuse to serve in the IDF, but are still technically "zionist" because of where they live....









i'll answer the rest later.....






So I'll ask you again, since you know you can't answer it, "What do you think had increased the life expectancy globally if it isn't improved medical treatment and food production?" Are you trying to say that you think TCM and other "alternative" medicines and martial arts are the reason for increased life expectancy globally? Do you honestly believe that? If so, how do you explain the increase of life expectancy in places like China and Thailand? There is a DIRECT correlation between the advancements of food production quality and medicine to GLOBAL welfare.



Finds stupid things like you contradicting yourself? Your beliefs are inconsistant and founded on an alterative reality that never existed.



They were also dying in their 30's and 40's from simple infections and malnutrition. People were dying from famines regularly. You like to ignore that reality and then jump ahead 40 years to people who are elderly and point to them as living unnaturally but you're more than happy to take those healthy years in between. You want to paint this picture of unnatural and bad, but you're more than happy to take advantage of those unnatural things that benefit your fucked up world view.




and organic is a step backwards and not a step forward. so the idea that this is an advancement is really funny.


You just said that they had made advancements? Which way is it now? is it traditional or is it modern? If it's modern then what are they doing that is any different than "western" medicine? How many blood tests have you taken with a TCM doctor? If you do, then how do they read the chemicals in a persons body and what levels they are at?


Yes, and TCM is just herbs and acupuncture. What's your point?





So all forms of energy are the same and that's it's a catch all term. that food being turned into energy is somehow the same thing as "energy" flowing through your body, but not blood, that can be blocked or imbalanced. Qi and the energy created by food aren't the same. One is an incontrollable reflex, the other is a spiritual concept.

http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html



It's not a translation of it, because the concept of qi doesn't fit the definition of energy, especially not the energy that is derived from food. If it can be tested against, then please show me some examples. How does food become qi? Notice I didn't say energy. I want to know how something goes from food and then gets converted into qi that flows through the body and how it flows through the body.




But it is your cup of tea when it's convenient for you. Your reasons for not trusting the FDA aren't actually based on anything but paranoid conspiracy theories. If the FDA was all about keeping people sick, then wouldn't that go against the rest of the governments agenda of keeping people able to work so they can be taxed? You also keep ignoring the fact that the FDA only exists in the US, so why don't you trust drugs from other countries?


it isn't any different which is why I asked you the question to begin with. Now you get to think about it some more and get back to me.




Uh, http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/protocols_of_zion.html And yes or no, do you blame the jews for the new world order or not?

and you mean this guy? http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/nhf.html





You mean like selling people cancer fighting tea that was actually 99.4 percent water and a brownish sludge composed mainly of coliform bacteria? man, fuck the FDA!



Because I don't think it's actually been tested and proved to be effective or not.




Because that's what medical drugs are, refined and improved things from nature? Where did I say that herbal remedies are anything other than drugs? Am I disputing acupuncture, etc in terms of what?




And when was the last case of this? Holy shit, the FDA did all this? fuck.





So what makes herbs==good but drugs==bad?





So a more refined product is watered down? Traditional doesn't mean progession. This is the point you fail to comprehend.For something to be traditional it can't really progress. Once it progresses it becomes modern it ceases to be traditional.





natural childbirth isn't a TCM concept though. The made up history that you have based your beliefs on where people lived better healthier lives prior to the past 100 years and all the advances that came in those years. The fact that you make the statement " before there were cities, and hospitals and ambulances people relied on herbal remedies and survived for years without the use of "western medicine?" just illustrates the point. The lives before the use of western medicine were miserable and short.


because it's nothing more than the paranoid rant of crazy people?



You were trying to compare and constrast them with "drugs" as if they are somehow different, when they're not. Hell most of the time it's the same substance just in different amounts. This just makes the point that it's all the same shit and you just want to have a problem with one but not the other when it's basically the same.



to be continued.....

[xsecx]

again, i never said he was "cured" just that he is no longer testing positive. and if he were "misdiagnosed" that was western medicine that misdiagnosed him. so are you saying that you have complete and an unquestioning trust in methods that often misdiagnose people and have them PAYING for drugs for years?

and again, i'm not trying to convert you, i'm answering your question about "how i came to my conclusion and OPINION."

and are you looking for an unbiased source like "the skeptics dictionary?" yeah, really unbiased.

So this can't happen in TCM? There aren't people convinced they have something constantly wrong that they have to get acupuncture regularly? Mistakes happen but I have a damn sight more faith in a system based on science than people guessing and making shit up.

Yeah and so far you've come to your conclusion and opinion and everything but science, which really does indicate where your brain is and the value your opinions have.

Considering everything I've posted from the skeptics dictionary was actually backed up by CITED unbiased sources, yeah.





again, do i need to draw you a digram? i choose "alternative" methods because that's what i choose. that's all there is to it. i've tried both and i feel that alternative methods work better for me...
each time you get a headache could be from different imbalances. therefore you get treated for THAT imbalance. so yes it is different for everytime. although you could have a stock herb and try it, but it doesn't mean it will work. just like in western med. you could have a cabinet full of tylenol, but just because you take some doesn't mean your headache will go away, if for example you are getting headaches because your back is misaligned.


Sure if your drawing can make more sense than your words. So yeah, you're trying to compare going to an herbalist every time something is wrong vs just taking a drug. You're not comparing apples to apples, which is what I said before. Now do we need to draw you a picture that shows you the difference between an apple and an orange? Do you even remember what you're trying to argue anymore?





because i've found it to work better for me. plus i've already told you that most if not all western meds are tested on animals. so that right there is enough for me to try "alternatives".


And that's a completely different issue, Of course throughout time herbal remedies have been tested on animals too.




you mean you need ANOTHER diagram? yes obviously i know that music and medication are "different" but the ability to have different opinions on which you like better is the same.

No, actually they aren't. One is based on personal taste, the other should be based on science and shouldn't really be subject to, I like how that one tastes better. Your drawing sucks. "Why wouldn't you want to be sure that what you're taking is safe and effective? Now how can you be sure of that without scientific studies?"



umm... no i didn't.

Yes you did because you're comparing going to a store and getting a drug to seeing someone and having something prescribed.



i'm talking about epidurals smart guy, i'm talking about doctors waltzing in like they own the place, sticking their fingers in the womans vagina and moon walking out of the room, for somebody else to waltz right in and do the same. i'm talking about the atmosphere of western medicine in child birth.

lamaze also teaches to take short quick breaths and push counting to 10, which causes a woman to tear, and is more painful then letting the baby come when it's ready. hospitals don't care if the baby is okay, they want you to come in, push your baby out so they can go to the next lady. it's not the same with home-birthing scenarios.


Great and how does any of this relate to the subject at hand? Does home-birthing not exist in the west?




i'm not talking about TCM, i'm talking about childbirth.

awesome, when your point starts falling apart bring up some other shit that has nothing to do with it.





it's not about being natural vs. unnatural. it's about casting a broken arm.

is it also about not answering basic questions? Why wouldn't you get treated the TCM way for a broken bone?




having a different opinion is not pitting one against the other. it's debating my opinion that is pitting one against the other.
so now vivisection is a TCM thing?

When your different opinion is "TCM is better than Western Medicine" then yes, it is pitting one against the other. You don't trust western medicine so how is it not? I like how animal testing automatically becomes vivisection. Are you sure that TCM doesn't involve animal testing? Good thing to switch tactics at this point, clearly your entire issue with western medicine is now vivisection. But shit, doesn't TCM use some animal based remedies?
http://www.worldwildlife.org/trade/tcm.cfm




i never said it was "bad" why is it so wrong to choose massage or accupuncture over nyquil? these are two "alternative methods" that do not require consuming ANY toxins/chemicals or anything for that matter. so if it works, why not utilize it?


oh ok, so before it was crazy, and not it's not "bad"? What proof do you have that massage or acupuncture is an effective treatment for a cold?




but it's not the same fucking thing. accupuncture is definately NOT the same thing as taking drugs, herbal or otherwise.

and amazingly you're just not focusing on acupuncture where before it was herbal remedies and teas. Do you only trust acupunture and massage and you don't trust herbal remedies now?





okay, i'm the dumbass that believes that massage and accupuncture are the "same" as drugs..... wow.

look kids as I pull a distraction out of my ass.





how do you figure i haven't been able to explain it? you just can't comprehend it. you have this ego problem that only wants to debate EVERY single issue that anybody brings up on your stupid forum. you can't comprehend that people have different opinions, and when you ask "where they get their opinions" as if it's any of your business to begin with, you don't "buy it". obviously people in my life are going to help shape my opinions about things and i'm not a liar, so if i say a friend helped his situation with herbal remedies better than he did with western remedies, than either take it or leave it. it's okay with me if you'd prefer western methods. it's not affecting me either way.


so wait, you can explain it? damn dude make up your mind. You either can explain why you can or you can't Or did you not say that? It could be the fact that your opinion is based on less than science and you can't actually demonstrate your point. If someone has a different opinion than me and can demonstrate how they came to it, then I don't have any problem with it. However when people. like yourself make statements that aren't backed up by logic or history or science, why should I respect that opinion?




if you count inconsistancies as being I personally do not smoke marijuana, but i could care less if bob marley did. than cool.
your single issue mindset of "black/white" can't comprehend different scenarios and paths others have taken. and this is the exact mindset that has given "straightedge" such a negative following of brain dead losers.


well, if you want to go back to the other threads you can count the inconsistancies. I'm glad that we're brain dead losers since you've really demonstrated in all of these conversations just how stupid and incapable of linear thought you are. I mean, you believe the world was created 7000 years.







technically yes.

do you own a dictionary? ok. go look it up the word business and then beat yourself with the dictionary for misusing the word.



so.... you're telling me that Government is not a business???? politics are not business?
if this is what you are getting at, first of all, i feel sorry for you. and secondly, no wonder the world is in such a fucked up state with brain-dead idiots like you walking around like zombies.

Is english your first language? Seriously? Did you graduate high school? I'm telling you by definition Government can't be a business. I feel really sorry for every teacher you ever had. You keep trying to expand words to mean things they don't. Like business. or government.




no, Yin Yang and Qi Gong, and yes a little about TCM. but not necessarily about "global conspiracies"

So did they explain how it's not based on science?



maybe you forgot or never heard of the world wide NWO speach Bush senior gave in 1990?

You mean the speech where he said it once talking about the state of the world in a post cold war world and not your paranoid NWO concept?





what is my version? to be honest i'm not big on NWO theories. i don't doubt they exist, but i am not personally invested on researching all of the potential "families" that may or may not be conspiring against the rest of us to control the entire world.


So then why would you try and defend some quack's NWO rants that it's the Jews running the FDA keeping herbs out of the hands of the masses?



then i'm guessing you've never known any Jews?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html
just one of many "Jews against zionism" websites.

This is like posting a jews for jesus website and saying that some jews believe that jesus was their savior. So the vast majorities of jews worldwide are against zionism?




this is a pretty complex question. although on the surface it appears to be pretty straight forward, the answer is not. first of all, i never said i "hate zionists". with that said, i believe that Jews should have a place to govern as a sovereign state. this is not to be confused as me believing that they (the zionists) have the right to kick Palestinians out of their own homes.... this is comparable to what if all African americans were to go back to Africa and kicking all Africans out of their homes and attempting to declare a sovereign state. this is oppressive, and i am against oppression..
there are Jews living in Israel now that refuse to serve in the IDF, but are still technically "zionist" because of where they live....


so they have a right to govern a soverign state, but they shouldn't only be able to do it anywhere that someone else exists. So that pretty much leaves Antarctica. Of course Israel is where it is for a biblical reason, and you're all about people being able to live out their religious beliefs. .

[Tahir]

So this can't happen in TCM? There aren't people convinced they have something constantly wrong that they have to get acupuncture regularly? Mistakes happen but I have a damn sight more faith in a system based on science than people guessing and making shit up.

oh you mean like "misdiagnosing" people and changing their entire lives?


Yeah and so far you've come to your conclusion and opinion and everything but science, which really does indicate where your brain is and the value your opinions have.

well i'm not a scientiest. so i can't exactly do the scientific research myself. but i have come to my conclusions and opinions, based on my own experience. and people that i know....


Considering everything I've posted from the skeptics dictionary was actually backed up by CITED unbiased sources, yeah.

yeah, i'm sure it is.




Sure if your drawing can make more sense than your words. So yeah, you're trying to compare going to an herbalist every time something is wrong vs just taking a drug. You're not comparing apples to apples, which is what I said before. Now do we need to draw you a picture that shows you the difference between an apple and an orange? Do you even remember what you're trying to argue anymore?

well, going to an herbalist when something is wrong, you get EVALUATED and can treat the "imbalance". going to the store and buying drugs is not fixing the imbalance it is suppressing symptoms. so yeah, i'd say these are comparable.






And that's a completely different issue, Of course throughout time herbal remedies have been tested on animals too.

but you said yourself, that "scientific" studies is what makes it "western medicine". so is that not the case now?



No, actually they aren't. One is based on personal taste, the other should be based on science and shouldn't really be subject to, I like how that one tastes better. Your drawing sucks. "Why wouldn't you want to be sure that what you're taking is safe and effective? Now how can you be sure of that without scientific studies?"

so you're telling me that you've done all the scientific research on every medication you've ever used? and always have? or do you just have personal opinions based on what has worked for you in the past?
and just becaues YOU prefer one medication, doesn't mean it is THE medication to use across the board for everybody does it?

and if i choose one baby car seat over another, do i need scientific studies to make a decision? they both have a tendency to determine the safety of a child, life/death in case of an accident. or is it okay to buy one based on which one fits better in the specific car you have? or based on opinion, since they both claim to be the safest how can you determine which one to buy?


Yes you did because you're comparing going to a store and getting a drug to seeing someone and having something prescribed.

actually going to a doctor TCM or otherwise, and being evaluated and treated IS different than just going to the store and buying drugs to suppress symptoms....
this is the same for western medicine as well.
if you get sick, why not find out WHY you are sick, and treat it instead of temporary relief?



Great and how does any of this relate to the subject at hand? Does home-birthing not exist in the west?

it relates, because i was talking about homebirthing and how it is considered "alternative". i was talking about epidurals, which is western medicine.
and yes homebirthing exists in the west, so do TCM doctors, acupuncurists, massage therapists, TaiJi Chuan schools, and yes even chinese restaraunts. can you believe that?

also, i was giving different scenarios/procedures that the "western doctors" do that are not present in "alternative" birthing.



awesome, when your point starts falling apart bring up some other shit that has nothing to do with it.

so now the "alternative" methods of birthing a child are not relevent to the conversation? how so?


is it also about not answering basic questions? Why wouldn't you get treated the TCM way for a broken bone?

you act like a TCM practitioner wouldn't splint or cast a broken arm. if i broke my arm, the chances of finding a TCM doctor that was covered by insurance would be slim to none for one thing.
although pain reliever would more than likely be different prescribed by a western doctor as opposed to a TCM doctor, they both would splint/cast the broken bone, so it can heal correctly.
it's not like western doctors would give you some magical pill that nobody else has access to.



When your different opinion is "TCM is better than Western Medicine" then yes, it is pitting one against the other. You don't trust western medicine so how is it not?

well once again, my "distrust" is more or less with the FDA. i have read things that imply drug companies, pay the FDA to get their product approved. which although i can't prove it, i don't doubt it either....
and besides that, having a difference of opinion, isn't "pitting one against the other". i'm not saying western med. is bad. i just don't prefer it over "alternative" methods... how many times does this have to be said???


I like how animal testing automatically becomes vivisection. Are you sure that TCM doesn't involve animal testing? Good thing to switch tactics at this point, clearly your entire issue with western medicine is now vivisection. But shit, doesn't TCM use some animal based remedies?
http://www.worldwildlife.org/trade/tcm.cfm

well first of all, this link doesn't show anything (unless i missed it) about animal testing. it just shows examples and talks about animal ingredients. which is different from animal testing. and on top of that, just because there are animal based remedies out there, doesn't mean you must use them. it's alot like being vegan, there are fast food joints on practically every corner, but it doesn't mean you can't live vegan/ital does it?

and you act like animal testing doesn't fall under the literal definition of vivisection. and if it doesn't then why does vivisection exist? if it's not for "Testing".... and performing tests on animals would be what???? that's right, animal testing.

i'm not sure that TRADITIONAL chinese medicine tests on animals... wasn't that your argument earlier in this conversation, that once it is tested scientifically it becomes "modern" and therefore becomes "western medicine?"
but other than that, i'm sure some herbal remedies are tested on animals too.
but buying a bag of echinacea root that was grown and dried, is not the same as buying a pill that was force fed to a rat to see if it would die or not.



oh ok, so before it was crazy, and not it's not "bad"? What proof do you have that massage or acupuncture is an effective treatment for a cold?

http://acupuncture.prairiecomm.net/NIH.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization



and amazingly you're just not focusing on acupuncture where before it was herbal remedies and teas. Do you only trust acupunture and massage and you don't trust herbal remedies now?

so are you implying that acupuncture and massage is not a common practice in TCM? and is not considered "alternative to western medicine?"



look kids as I pull a distraction out of my ass.

yeah you did, instead of focusing on what i said. try and show off for all the cookie cutter "straightedge kids" that look up to you...... for some reason.






so wait, you can explain it? damn dude make up your mind. You either can explain why you can or you can't Or did you not say that? It could be the fact that your opinion is based on less than science and you can't actually demonstrate your point. If someone has a different opinion than me and can demonstrate how they came to it, then I don't have any problem with it. However when people. like yourself make statements that aren't backed up by logic or history or science, why should I respect that opinion?

well, i don't really care if you respect my opinion any more than i respect your opinion.
but the statement alone shows how ignorant you really are. this is the problem with brain dead zombies. you are not capable of comprehending the concept of opinion.
and you are a "black/white" person, there is no in between. when you must know by now (what are you twenty something?) that every thing has a middle path. it is not always hot or cold, light or dark, this is the Yin/Yang theory explained so that even you can understand it.
and i'm sorry if i don't have my head up every bodies asses that posses a PhD. like you apparantly do.




well, if you want to go back to the other threads you can count the inconsistancies. I'm glad that we're brain dead losers since you've really demonstrated in all of these conversations just how stupid and incapable of linear thought you are. I mean, you believe the world was created 7000 years.

the braindead/losers thing was about strictly "black/white" personalities.
and do you mean inconsistancies like, being "drug free" or specifically "straightedge" but it's okay to take OTC drugs at your disposal? or take any drug somebody with a PhD throws at you without doing the "scientific" studies yourself to see what is in it exactly?
like those inconsistancies???

and where do you get that i believe the world was created only 7000 years ago?
is this where you try and convince me that you can throw random things out there without having any proof, but i can't have my own opinion about something?
how do you come to the conclusion that i believe that? where is your proof?






do you own a dictionary? ok. go look it up the word business and then beat yourself with the dictionary for misusing the word.

"one's regular occupation, profession, or trade." are you going to say that people who work for the FDA aren't there on a regular basis? it is not their "profession?"
"task or duty", do people who work for the FDA not have tasks or duties?

http://www.fda.gov/oc/ofacs/fdasbo/businesspub.html
is it possible to do business with something that isn't a business?

besides all that. if it's not a business by definition, it is a pawn for the drug manufacturers. as they get their funding from "drug manufacturers" to help fund the drug approval process. which ultimately means, if a drug manufacturer WANTS a drug approved, they pay for it to be approved. and are you implying that this doesn't happen?



Is english your first language? Seriously? Did you graduate high school? I'm telling you by definition Government can't be a business. I feel really sorry for every teacher you ever had. You keep trying to expand words to mean things they don't. Like business. or government.

oh, and governments are always looking out for the good of "we the people" aren't they. they (the government) never does anything for profit right? i'm sure nobody in government positions ever utilize their position to make money right? i feel sorry for you, because you trust so many people who don't deserve to be trusted.



So did they explain how it's not based on science?

did you


You mean the speech where he said it once talking about the state of the world in a post cold war world and not your paranoid NWO concept?

so he just thought of the NWO out of nowhere on the spot? and it was never a plan?






So then why would you try and defend some quack's NWO rants that it's the Jews running the FDA keeping herbs out of the hands of the masses?

i must have missed where he said that. but the point was he was at one time respected. regardless what he was accused of allegedly doing.


This is like posting a jews for jesus website and saying that some jews believe that jesus was their savior. So the vast majorities of jews worldwide are against zionism?

well it would be impossible to find out without asking every single Jew now wouldn't it? but for the most part, things that i've read say yes. and if it' snot enough to have Jews against Zionism links then i don't know what else to tell you. because obviously not all Jews feel the way you assume they feel. that is why it is YOUR stereotype.




so they have a right to govern a soverign state, but they shouldn't only be able to do it anywhere that someone else exists. So that pretty much leaves Antarctica. Of course Israel is where it is for a biblical reason, and you're all about people being able to live out their religious beliefs. .



well pushing people out of their homes, bulldozing their houses and leaving them stranded homeless, jobless and then slap a curfew on them and then punish them when they are not indoors past the curfew, even though their fucking homes have been demolished isn't exactly "governing a sovereign state" that is oppressive domination. and is not the same as coexisting which is what the majority of Jews want.
i'm about people living out their religious beliefes if it does not infringe on another persons right to exist, and is not oppressive....
i am not saying that all Palestinians are good and all Zionists are bad either.



eitherway, this is getting to be too long. i'm over trying to justify my opinion to you. you will inevitably always strive to have the last word, so i'm stopping this here.

i'd much rather be trading records......

[xsecx]

oh you mean like "misdiagnosing" people and changing their entire lives?

Like this can't and doesn't happen in TCM?




well i'm not a scientiest. so i can't exactly do the scientific research myself. but i have come to my conclusions and opinions, based on my own experience. and people that i know....


but yet you feel capable of deciding what is and isn't good based on anecdotal evidence. I guess you can't read either or understand basic scientific principle.



yeah, i'm sure it is.


So how isn't it? or are you conceding that you're actually wrong?



well, going to an herbalist when something is wrong, you get EVALUATED and can treat the "imbalance". going to the store and buying drugs is not fixing the imbalance it is suppressing symptoms. so yeah, i'd say these are comparable.

yes dumbass and if you go to a doctor you GET evaluated and can treat the illness. So yeah you're talking about 2 different scenarios. Self medication isn't the same as going and seeing someone, but keep trying to pretend that it is so you can talk about how evil western medicine is.



but you said yourself, that "scientific" studies is what makes it "western medicine". so is that not the case now?

How does this relate to TCM animal testing or the original question that was actually "So how exactly is your problem with western medicine when the same problem exists with TCM?"




so you're telling me that you've done all the scientific research on every medication you've ever used? and always have? or do you just have personal opinions based on what has worked for you in the past?
and just becaues YOU prefer one medication, doesn't mean it is THE medication to use across the board for everybody does it?

and if i choose one baby car seat over another, do i need scientific studies to make a decision? they both have a tendency to determine the safety of a child, life/death in case of an accident. or is it okay to buy one based on which one fits better in the specific car you have? or based on opinion, since they both claim to be the safest how can you determine which one to buy?


See, that's the great thing about regulation, you don't have to personally research everything. Because it's regulated you know that it's been tested throughly and deemed safe. The same can't be said for unregulated herbal remedies which aren't subject to any scientific review.

So you wouldn't research crash test results of the car seats and you'd just trust which one looks better and fits your car the best? Or maybe you can hear about one from your friends.




actually going to a doctor TCM or otherwise, and being evaluated and treated IS different than just going to the store and buying drugs to suppress symptoms....
this is the same for western medicine as well.
if you get sick, why not find out WHY you are sick, and treat it instead of temporary relief?


but just a few lines above you said it wasn't?




it relates, because i was talking about homebirthing and how it is considered "alternative". i was talking about epidurals, which is western medicine.
and yes homebirthing exists in the west, so do TCM doctors, acupuncurists, massage therapists, TaiJi Chuan schools, and yes even chinese restaraunts. can you believe that?

also, i was giving different scenarios/procedures that the "western doctors" do that are not present in "alternative" birthing.


it's not considered "alternative" in the same way that acupuncture and herbal treatments are, though is it? Or is there a global conspiracy about that too? Or is homebirthing a TCM idea? Of course massage therapy isn't really alternative either. You've got some weird bias against all things western.





so now the "alternative" methods of birthing a child are not relevent to the conversation? how so?

How are they? How is something that is backed by medical research comparable to the other things we're discussing?



you act like a TCM practitioner wouldn't splint or cast a broken arm. if i broke my arm, the chances of finding a TCM doctor that was covered by insurance would be slim to none for one thing.
although pain reliever would more than likely be different prescribed by a western doctor as opposed to a TCM doctor, they both would splint/cast the broken bone, so it can heal correctly.
it's not like western doctors would give you some magical pill that nobody else has access to.

Well, considering casts are modern and not "traditional", why would I think that they would since you yourself said you'd go to a doctor? Why would you even have medical insurance if you don't trust western medicine? I mean why else would you say "that's not to say that if i broke my arm i wouldn't go to a doctor. and would prefer rubbing ground up herbs and mud medicate it like they do on the movies. as much as i prefer "alternative" treatments, i'm not crazy.... (as much as you like to say/think i am)" .




well once again, my "distrust" is more or less with the FDA. i have read things that imply drug companies, pay the FDA to get their product approved. which although i can't prove it, i don't doubt it either....
and besides that, having a difference of opinion, isn't "pitting one against the other". i'm not saying western med. is bad. i just don't prefer it over "alternative" methods... how many times does this have to be said???

So then you trust western medicine in other countries? You read things that imply global conspiracies, but you can't prove anything, yet you feel compelled to believe it. You continually demonstrate where you think TCM is good and all things western are bad, but you want to pretend that you're not pitting one against the other.




well first of all, this link doesn't show anything (unless i missed it) about animal testing. it just shows examples and talks about animal ingredients. which is different from animal testing. and on top of that, just because there are animal based remedies out there, doesn't mean you must use them. it's alot like being vegan, there are fast food joints on practically every corner, but it doesn't mean you can't live vegan/ital does it?
[/quote[

I'm demonstrating that TCM has a history of animal exploitation, so how isn't it possible/probable that throughout history it's been used for animal testing?
So you'll boycott companies based on animal testing and animal based products, but it somehow doesn't translate over to medical practices?

[quote]
and you act like animal testing doesn't fall under the literal definition of vivisection. and if it doesn't then why does vivisection exist? if it's not for "Testing".... and performing tests on animals would be what???? that's right, animal testing.

Not all animal testing is vivisection. I know you're not very bright, but if you want I can point out the definition and explain how there are more than one kind of "animal testing"



i'm not sure that TRADITIONAL chinese medicine tests on animals... wasn't that your argument earlier in this conversation, that once it is tested scientifically it becomes "modern" and therefore becomes "western medicine?"
but other than that, i'm sure some herbal remedies are tested on animals too.
but buying a bag of echinacea root that was grown and dried, is not the same as buying a pill that was force fed to a rat to see if it would die or not.

So if you're not sure, then aren't you in the same place with western medicine, since you can't be sure it all is tested on animals? Also since when did scientific tests automatically translate to animal testing? So buying a bag of roots that at one point and time may have been tested on an animals isn't the same as buying a pill that at one point and time may have been tested on animals?





http://acupuncture.prairiecomm.net/NIH.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization


Oh ok, well respected medical journals. You got me there.





so are you implying that acupuncture and massage is not a common practice in TCM? and is not considered "alternative to western medicine?"

Are you implying that you aren't just now shifting attention to acupuncture and massage from herbal remedies when that failed miserably?

Considering that massage isn't considered alternative at all, no, I'm not implying it, I'm saying it outright. I'm also saying that acupunture hasn't been proven effective and that there are still a shitload of tests going on, but that even if it is effective for nerve treatment it sure as hell isn't because of your fairy tale of chi blockage and imbalances.





yeah you did, instead of focusing on what i said. try and show off for all the cookie cutter "straightedge kids" that look up to you...... for some reason.

since what you said was and still is a distraction, and a distraction I've addressed multiple times, how didn't I focus on it? I find it hilarious that mr hardline is calling people cookie cutter where you version of the world is actually cookie cutter and mine isn't.



well, i don't really care if you respect my opinion any more than i respect your opinion.
but the statement alone shows how ignorant you really are. this is the problem with brain dead zombies. you are not capable of comprehending the concept of opinion.
and you are a "black/white" person, there is no in between. when you must know by now (what are you twenty something?) that every thing has a middle path. it is not always hot or cold, light or dark, this is the Yin/Yang theory explained so that even you can understand it.
and i'm sorry if i don't have my head up every bodies asses that posses a PhD. like you apparantly do.

Then why do you keep talking? Nothing makes you come back here and post. I mean, of course there are good opinions and bad ones. Ones that are based on facts and research and ones that based on feelings and bullshit. This somehow translates to me being ignorant, but hey, you believe in made up shit, so right on!




the braindead/losers thing was about strictly "black/white" personalities.
and do you mean inconsistancies like, being "drug free" or specifically "straightedge" but it's okay to take OTC drugs at your disposal? or take any drug somebody with a PhD throws at you without doing the "scientific" studies yourself to see what is in it exactly?
like those inconsistancies???

Do you understand what the word inconsistent means? If my issue is with recreational drug use,then how is my view of medicinal drugs inconsistent with those beliefs? how can you be drug free and straight edge in your world where you'll take any drug as long as it's in herbal form?



and where do you get that i believe the world was created only 7000 years ago?
is this where you try and convince me that you can throw random things out there without having any proof, but i can't have my own opinion about something?
how do you come to the conclusion that i believe that? where is your proof?


So you're not a muslim now? Or do you just pick which parts to believe in and which parts to ignore? How and when was the world created?





"one's regular occupation, profession, or trade." are you going to say that people who work for the FDA aren't there on a regular basis? it is not their "profession?"
"task or duty", do people who work for the FDA not have tasks or duties?

http://www.fda.gov/oc/ofacs/fdasbo/businesspub.html
is it possible to do business with something that isn't a business?


I'm surprised you didn't try and use "serious work or activity" Of course, in that definition it's talking about an individual and not a group and certianly isn't:

3 a : a usually commercial or mercantile activity engaged in as a means of livelihood : TRADE, LINE <in the restaurant business> b : a commercial or sometimes an industrial enterprise; also : such enterprises <the business district>

by definition regulatory groups aren't businesses. For someone who is trying to call me black and white, you have a hard time understanding that not everything you want to call a business is a business. The police aren't a business. Professional firefighters aren't a business. The IRS is not a business. Public Schools aren't a business.



besides all that. if it's not a business by definition, it is a pawn for the drug manufacturers. as they get their funding from "drug manufacturers" to help fund the drug approval process. which ultimately means, if a drug manufacturer WANTS a drug approved, they pay for it to be approved. and are you implying that this doesn't happen?


So I have to pay a fee to get my drivers license does that mean that the DMV is my pawn? Or am I at the mercy of the DMV to pass their criteria before I'm issued a license? Are you really this dumb/paranoid?




oh, and governments are always looking out for the good of "we the people" aren't they. they (the government) never does anything for profit right? i'm sure nobody in government positions ever utilize their position to make money right? i feel sorry for you, because you trust so many people who don't deserve to be trusted.

and corruption doesn't equate to it being a business. Governments are bad, hi, I'm tahir and I'm black and white. I feel sorry for you that you live in a society you clearly hate yet want to exploit to it's full potential based on paranoid ramblings.





did you

yes actually the chi meridian's, not science.




so he just thought of the NWO out of nowhere on the spot? and it was never a plan?

ok mr black and white, are you going to tell me that your paranoid version of new world order is in everyone's mind and that there isn't any chance that people couldn't use those 3 words together to convey that the order of the world has changed?





i must have missed where he said that. but the point was he was at one time respected. regardless what he was accused of allegedly doing.

You mean that he was convicted of? Or is that because the conspiracy against him and not because he was selling sick people shitwater and telling them that it would cure cancer?




well it would be impossible to find out without asking every single Jew now wouldn't it? but for the most part, things that i've read say yes. and if it' snot enough to have Jews against Zionism links then i don't know what else to tell you. because obviously not all Jews feel the way you assume they feel. that is why it is YOUR stereotype.

but the vast majority of the jews worldwide do support Israel, which is the exact reason why it exists and will continue to exist. I can find black civil war re-enactors that happily fly the confederate flag, does that somehow change the views of the majority? Or can we not make generalizations based on real world facts?




well pushing people out of their homes, bulldozing their houses and leaving them stranded homeless, jobless and then slap a curfew on them and then punish them when they are not indoors past the curfew, even though their fucking homes have been demolished isn't exactly "governing a sovereign state" that is oppressive domination. and is not the same as coexisting which is what the majority of Jews want.
i'm about people living out their religious beliefes if it does not infringe on another persons right to exist, and is not oppressive....
i am not saying that all Palestinians are good and all Zionists are bad either.

take a plane and take up arms against them then. In your view they're far more oppressive than anything going on here. So if you're not saying that all Zionists are bad, then your previous statement sure as fuck seems like it.




eitherway, this is getting to be too long. i'm over trying to justify my opinion to you. you will inevitably always strive to have the last word, so i'm stopping this here.


oh ok then, thank you for your time here and a really great look into the mind of someone who's completely insane and living fairy tales.



i'd much rather be trading records......
yeah that's probably much more your speed since it doesn't require much thinking.

[TaiTseChien]

i know i am just jumping right into this arguement... but it seems that everyone on here cept the chosen few trusts everything that their doctors tell them... which is fucking retarted... prescription drugs are one of the leading causes of death in the U.S.A. and yet for some reason every year more people die from more prescription drugs... i mean haven't you people ever noticed that everytime you see a drug advertised on t.v. the commercial ends with a minute of side effects... all these drugs do is supress one problem by causing a different problem... check out this link about prescription drugs... http://breathing.com/articles/prescription-drugs.htm
also check out this link
//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721180821.htm

also all this TCM bashing is really pissing me off... the most healthy people i have ever met in my life are old martial artists that never use prescription drugs... only herbs... all you kids talking shit on TCM really need to do some research of your own and stop asking tahir questions then not listening to his answers... actually its kinda funny and makes you all look like jackasses... so keep doing it...
that is all...

[xsecx]

i know i am just jumping right into this arguement... but it seems that everyone on here cept the chosen few trusts everything that their doctors tell them... which is fucking retarted... prescription drugs are one of the leading causes of death in the U.S.A. and yet for some reason every year more people die from more prescription drugs... i mean haven't you people ever noticed that everytime you see a drug advertised on t.v. the commercial ends with a minute of side effects... all these drugs do is supress one problem by causing a different problem... check out this link about prescription drugs... http://breathing.com/articles/prescription-drugs.htm
also check out this link
//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721180821.htm


I don't think anyone here has said that they trust everything a doctor tells them or that there are no problems with western medicine. Prescription drugs are one of the leading causes of life in the USA and have greatly improved the quality and longevity of life. People are now recovering from illnesses that were terminal 2 decades ago, so if it's not because of western medicine and prescription drugs, then what is it? Pointing out issues in Western Medicine doesn't do anything to prove TCM, especially not when the same issue can exist in both. Why would/should I trust a TCM person more than a doctor?



also all this TCM bashing is really pissing me off... the most healthy people i have ever met in my life are old martial artists that never use prescription drugs... only herbs... all you kids talking shit on TCM really need to do some research of your own and stop asking tahir questions then not listening to his answers... actually its kinda funny and makes you all look like jackasses... so keep doing it...
that is all...

you know healthy people that exercise regularly? Wow, that's incredible! Are herbal remedies any different than prescription drugs? How is one ok but the other isn't? Tahir's answers aren't being listened to because they're not valid, so let's see if you can do any better.

[mouseman004]

i know i am just jumping right into this arguement... but it seems that everyone on here cept the chosen few trusts everything that their doctors tell them... which is fucking retarted... prescription drugs are one of the leading causes of death in the U.S.A. and yet for some reason every year more people die from more prescription drugs... i mean haven't you people ever noticed that everytime you see a drug advertised on t.v. the commercial ends with a minute of side effects... all these drugs do is supress one problem by causing a different problem... check out this link about prescription drugs... http://breathing.com/articles/prescription-drugs.htm
also check out this link
//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721180821.htm

also all this TCM bashing is really pissing me off... the most healthy people i have ever met in my life are old martial artists that never use prescription drugs... only herbs... all you kids talking shit on TCM really need to do some research of your own and stop asking tahir questions then not listening to his answers... actually its kinda funny and makes you all look like jackasses... so keep doing it...
that is all...

You know, despite what you crackpots beleive, the world is not out to get you. Doctors do not become doctors so that they can poison you. Answer me this, if i get cancer tomorrow, what is TCM going to do for me? Or how about this, TCM has been around for thousands of years, if it is so much better then western medicine, why is it that mortality rate has decreased with the growth of medical technology and why is it that with the growth of technology, life expectancy has more than doubled? Nobody is saying that TCM is bad, we are just saying that it is ridiculous so sit at home with your tinfoil hats beleiving that the medical world is just out to get you.

[TaiTseChien]

Just because i don't trust modern medicine doesn't make me a crackpot... having alternative ideas does not make me a crackpot...
why would i trust western medicine... someone should try and make a claim about the positive effects of westen medicine rather than trying to just break down my internet arguements...
the fda... the federal drug administration... is alot of bull shit cock suckers that treat drugs like a business... its a fucking joke...
check out this link... and maybe actually read it too http://www.newstarget.com/001810.html... actually go to this link and just pick one of the topics http://www.newstarget.com/the_FDA.html... and if your cool you'll surf around and do some research for yourselves rather than excpecting XsecX to spoon feed you his high and mighty sXe know it all bull shit...
on another note xsecx... way to go kicking tahir off for having different beliefs than you... maybe you should go back and kick off all the people that were name calling... i mean some kid just called me a crackpot... but i can take it... unlike you obviously...

[mouseman004]

Just because i don't trust modern medicine doesn't make me a crackpot... having alternative ideas does not make me a crackpot...
why would i trust western medicine... someone should try and make a claim about the positive effects of westen medicine rather than trying to just break down my internet arguements...
the fda... the federal drug administration... is alot of bull shit cock suckers that treat drugs like a business... its a fucking joke...
check out this link... and maybe actually read it too http://www.newstarget.com/001810.html... actually go to this link and just pick one of the topics http://www.newstarget.com/the_FDA.html... and if your cool you'll surf around and do some research for yourselves rather than excpecting XsecX to spoon feed you his high and mighty sXe know it all bull shit...
on another note xsecx... way to go kicking tahir off for having different beliefs than you... maybe you should go back and kick off all the people that were name calling... i mean some kid just called me a crackpot... but i can take it... unlike you obviously...

Thank you for proving my point that you are one of Tahir's friends and came here with the sole purpose of defending him. an you never actually answered my questions so i will ask them again. If i get cancer tomorrow what is TCM going to do for me? Secondly if TCM has been around for thousands of years, and its so much healthier than western medicine, why has life expectancy doubled with the growth of western medicine in the 20th and 21st centuries?
Dont talk about me like im a little kid sitting in a corner taking dusty's comments as if they were gods, if you had actually paid attention to this site instead of just jumping in to a debate you would know that Dusty and I never seem to agree, we just both know that you and tahir are illogical crackpots who beleieve the world is out to get you. Watch out or some radiation is going to come from your computer and kill you! Modern technology is bad!

[xsecx]

ather than excpecting XsecX to spoon feed you his high and mighty sXe know it all bull shit...
on another note xsecx... way to go kicking tahir off for having different beliefs than you... maybe you should go back and kick off all the people that were name calling... i mean some kid just called me a crackpot... but i can take it... unlike you obviously...

it's amazing that you're just parroting what tahir has already said. Of course he wasn't kicked off for having different beliefs. He was kicked off because he was unable to actually discuss anything and just resorted to lame insults. Now if you want to just make posts saying to fuck everyone and calling people fruits, then sure, you'll end up the same.

[TaiTseChien]

dear methodman... read this... http://www.tcmpage.com/hpcancer.html...
there is a difference between not trusting things and questioning things... last time i checked wm hasn't gotten rid of cancer... it only supreses it... sure wm increases life span... but people aren't anymore healthy... WM only slows down the process of most disease where as TCM looks to prevent these diseases... WM is all about waiting until you have a problem then trying to solve it... TCM balances a healthy diet with exercise and internal work outs to try and solve problems before they arise...
mr. methodman you should also check this site out... its a bit dated... but there is still good info... http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/NEWSunited_states_far_from_healthies.htm... even though i get the feeling that none of you read any of the links i put forth... cause i'm a crackpot...
mr. SEC... don't talk about parroting... considering the fact that this site is pretty much just a haven for your little agreeable cronies... and anyone who disagrees with what the almighty SEC says is labled a crackpot... i actually find it kinda funny... that just because i agree with what TAHIR says in this instance i'm "parroting" what he him... but i can almost picture what your reply is going to be... "Well... Well... just cause tahir is illogical... and i'm right and mouseman is right... and your wrong... WM for life... TCM is bad cause its old... ummm i didn't read any of your links cause... ummm... cause your a crackpot... and they weren't in SXE weekly..." ha ha... way to much fun...
i've read through alot of yours and TAHIRS arguements... and it looked to me that you both were mud slinging... and you also were both developing somewhat strong arguements...

[xsecx]

dear methodman... read this...
mr. SEC... don't talk about parroting... considering the fact that this site is pretty much just a haven for your little agreeable cronies... and anyone who disagrees with what the almighty SEC says is labled a crackpot... i actually find it kinda funny... that just because i agree with what TAHIR says in this instance i'm "parroting" what he him... but i can almost picture what your reply is going to be... "Well... Well... just cause tahir is illogical... and i'm right and mouseman is right... and your wrong... WM for life... TCM is bad cause its old... ummm i didn't read any of your links cause... ummm... cause your a crackpot... and they weren't in SXE weekly..." ha ha... way to much fun...
i've read through alot of yours and TAHIRS arguements... and it looked to me that you both were mud slinging... and you also were both developing somewhat strong arguements...

no, I'm saying you're parroting because you just spat out word for word what tahir did when he found out he was banned, and guess what, that wasn't posted here for you to read.

[xsecx]

dear methodman... read this... http://www.tcmpage.com/hpcancer.html...
there is a difference between not trusting things and questioning things... last time i checked wm hasn't gotten rid of cancer... it only supreses it... sure wm increases life span... but people aren't anymore healthy... WM only slows down the process of most disease where as TCM looks to prevent these diseases... WM is all about waiting until you have a problem then trying to solve it... TCM balances a healthy diet with exercise and internal work outs to try and solve problems before they arise...
mr. methodman you should also check this site out... its a bit dated... but there is still good info... http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/NEWSunited_states_far_from_healthies.htm... even though i get the feeling that none of you read any of the links i put forth... cause i'm a crackpot...

Think logically about what you're saying. if TCM looks to prevent those diseases then why were life expectancies slow low prior to the last century? How/why did those diseases exist in china? Take the statistics from your last link and compare them to the US and China pre 1900 and then tell me how great TCM was and how disease was prevented.

[TaiTseChien]

sec... the more research i do the more i am covinced that tcm is the right way to go... all you do is question what i say... you don't contribute anything to this arguement... and thats fine... i honestly wish you find an article that tells me how great WM is... because no matter where i look i just find more things that say WM is bad... natural is the way to go for me... if you want to pump your body full of drugs thats fine with me... but its just not for me... and i think you should do some research outside of your little website... and maybe you'll find out for your self that you shouldn't have so much trust in pharmasutical(sp) companies and the fda and the doctors you pay... but fuck it... you being unhealthy doesn't really bother me... other than i think sxe isn't just about abstaining from drugs and alcohol... but also about healthy living... here are some facts... read up... and maybe in your rebuttle show me some support for your claims...
http://ezinearticles.com/?Holistic-Health-Care%E2%80%94What-and-Whom&id=193563

[mouseman004]

dear methodman... read this... http://www.tcmpage.com/hpcancer.html...
there is a difference between not trusting things and questioning things... last time i checked wm hasn't gotten rid of cancer... it only supreses it... sure wm increases life span... but people aren't anymore healthy... WM only slows down the process of most disease where as TCM looks to prevent these diseases... WM is all about waiting until you have a problem then trying to solve it... TCM balances a healthy diet with exercise and internal work outs to try and solve problems before they arise...
mr. methodman you should also check this site out... its a bit dated... but there is still good info... http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/NEWSunited_states_far_from_healthies.htm... even though i get the feeling that none of you read any of the links i put forth... cause i'm a crackpot...
mr. SEC... don't talk about parroting... considering the fact that this site is pretty much just a haven for your little agreeable cronies... and anyone who disagrees with what the almighty SEC says is labled a crackpot... i actually find it kinda funny... that just because i agree with what TAHIR says in this instance i'm "parroting" what he him... but i can almost picture what your reply is going to be... "Well... Well... just cause tahir is illogical... and i'm right and mouseman is right... and your wrong... WM for life... TCM is bad cause its old... ummm i didn't read any of your links cause... ummm... cause your a crackpot... and they weren't in SXE weekly..." ha ha... way to much fun...
i've read through alot of yours and TAHIRS arguements... and it looked to me that you both were mud slinging... and you also were both developing somewhat strong arguements...

What about Cancer that is genetic and not diet based? Or that still doesnt answer my question, TCM may be great for "preventing" cancer, but what can it do after you already find out you have cancer? WM is used to help issues after they arise. I wouldnt go out and get radiation treatments if I didnt have cancer, in hopes that it would prevent it, but i would get radiation treatments if I already had cancer and wanted to try to extend my life or get rid of my cancer.

You are not a crackpot because you beleive in TCM, thats fine, its healthy and I am not against it. You are a crackpot because you have it in your head that WM is evil and that the FDA is out to get you and make you sick. If you want to use TCM because you beleive in your heart that is the best way to go then fine, but dont ignore WM because you are paranoid, or when you actually get sick you will have some major issues.

And you still never answered my question about life expectancy and mortality rates, or did you simply pick and choose which of my comments you could refute best.

[xsecx]

sec... the more research i do the more i am covinced that tcm is the right way to go... all you do is question what i say... you don't contribute anything to this arguement... and thats fine... i honestly wish you find an article that tells me how great WM is... because no matter where i look i just find more things that say WM is bad... natural is the way to go for me... if you want to pump your body full of drugs thats fine with me... but its just not for me... and i think you should do some research outside of your little website... and maybe you'll find out for your self that you shouldn't have so much trust in pharmasutical(sp) companies and the fda and the doctors you pay... but fuck it... you being unhealthy doesn't really bother me... other than i think sxe isn't just about abstaining from drugs and alcohol... but also about healthy living... here are some facts... read up... and maybe in your rebuttle show me some support for your claims...
http://ezinearticles.com/?Holistic-Health-Care%E2%80%94What-and-Whom&id=193563
If you want articles about how great western medicine is, pick up any issue of any medical journal ever written, so I guess you've never read any of those. I mean shit, western medicine hasn't cured any diseases or found effective treatments for countless others. You do realize that by using TCM you're still pumping your body full of drugs when you're sick right? You do realize that every link you've posted is biased and it certainly isn't from a scientific source. Now if you want to talk about this seriously, than please provide some links for a scientific study and not from a life coach that does hypnotherapy and regression. The problem is that you've bought into something so completely that you're not looking at the subject objectively at all. You have a twisted version of the past that just isn't real. People weren't healthier in the past, and I'd really like to see what makes you think they were.

[TaiTseChien]

about life expectancy and mortalitly... life expectancy has increased for many reasons not just WM... the introduction of sewers for example has increased life expectancy... better storage of food... through the invention of the ice box... not to mention people have started eating healthier... smoking less... people are getting smarter... less acidents... less people are commiting suicide... cars have more air bags... i could go on... you can't give all the credit to WM...
And the FDA is a government program that needs some major changes to happen... i do not trust the people in power right now... and i do not trust the FDA... if i'm a crackpot for not full heartedly trusting in things like the FDA... then i am perfectly alright with being a crackpot...
about the cancer thing... if you take care of yourself and have a proper diet... and understand what herbs do what for your body you won't have the problems of cancer... and if you believe in Qi which you probably don't... you would understand that all things are internally connected and can be sorted out through meditation and proper diet again... the thing is i believe that most if not all diseases can be prevented... so i'll stick with living healthy now... rather than waiting to catch a cold...

[xsecx]

about life expectancy and mortalitly... life expectancy has increased for many reasons not just WM... the introduction of sewers for example has increased life expectancy... better storage of food... through the invention of the ice box... not to mention people have started eating healthier... smoking less... people are getting smarter... less acidents... less people are commiting suicide... cars have more air bags... i could go on... you can't give all the credit to WM...


not all, just most. so are you admitting that life expectancy has had a significant role in increasing life expectancy and survivability?



And the FDA is a government program that needs some major changes to happen... i do not trust the people in power right now... and i do not trust the FDA... if i'm a crackpot for not full heartedly trusting in things like the FDA... then i am perfectly alright with being a crackpot...


So what about every other country that practices western medicine that isn't the US? Do you not trust any of those either? And if not, why not? Why specifically don't you trust the FDA?




about the cancer thing... if you take care of yourself and have a proper diet... and understand what herbs do what for your body you won't have the problems of cancer... and if you believe in Qi which you probably don't... you would understand that all things are internally connected and can be sorted out through meditation and proper diet again... the thing is i believe that most if not all diseases can be prevented... so i'll stick with living healthy now... rather than waiting to catch a cold...

What science do you have to back up this belief? And how is taking herbs any different than taking drugs?

[mouseman004]

about life expectancy and mortalitly... life expectancy has increased for many reasons not just WM... the introduction of sewers for example has increased life expectancy... better storage of food... through the invention of the ice box... not to mention people have started eating healthier... smoking less... people are getting smarter... less acidents... less people are commiting suicide... cars have more air bags... i could go on... you can't give all the credit to WM...
And the FDA is a government program that needs some major changes to happen... i do not trust the people in power right now... and i do not trust the FDA... if i'm a crackpot for not full heartedly trusting in things like the FDA... then i am perfectly alright with being a crackpot...
about the cancer thing... if you take care of yourself and have a proper diet... and understand what herbs do what for your body you won't have the problems of cancer... and if you believe in Qi which you probably don't... you would understand that all things are internally connected and can be sorted out through meditation and proper diet again... the thing is i believe that most if not all diseases can be prevented... so i'll stick with living healthy now... rather than waiting to catch a cold...

What about doctors who get sick from helping sick people all day? Would eating healthy stop them from getting an infectious disease? Probably not. But again it comes down to beleifs. If you want to beleive that Western Medicine is the cause of sickness and is evil then that is your prerogative, I just hope for your sake you dont get anything worse then a cold.

And stop referring to everybody as dusty's minions. Again if you go back and read you will see that EVERYBODY on this website has disagreed with Dusty on more than one occasion, myself especially. However, Tahir made a post which said "Fuck XsecX, Fuck mouseman! etc" that is why he got kicked out, not because he disagreed with anybody.

[TaiTseChien]

not all, just most. so are you admitting that life expectancy has had a significant role in increasing life expectancy and survivability?


am i admitting that life expectancy has a significant role in increasing life expectancy... what the fuck does that mean...?



So what about every other country that practices western medicine that isn't the US? Do you not trust any of those either? And if not, why not? Why specifically don't you trust the FDA?

so you haven't read any of my links... and why specifically do you want to marry the fda so bad...?




What science do you have to back up this belief? And how is taking herbs any different than taking drugs?

drugs aren't natural... the human body is a natural thing... we obviously don't believe the same things about this world... i think putting synthetic man made drugs in your body is unnatural and ultimately unhealthy... there is plenty of science that backs up things like qigung... acupuncture... and i don't need science to know that when i get a headache there are certain pressure points i can press... and bang the headache is gone...

[TaiTseChien]

What about doctors who get sick from helping sick people all day? Would eating healthy stop them from getting an infectious disease? Probably not. But again it comes down to beleifs. If you want to beleive that Western Medicine is the cause of sickness and is evil then that is your prerogative, I just hope for your sake you dont get anything worse then a cold.

And stop referring to everybody as dusty's minions. Again if you go back and read you will see that EVERYBODY on this website has disagreed with Dusty on more than one occasion, myself especially. However, Tahir made a post which said "Fuck XsecX, Fuck mouseman! etc" that is why he got kicked out, not because he disagreed with anybody.

I dont think its evil... i just think that there are positive alternatives... its my outlook on life... i don't like the way prescription drugs make me feel... they are filled with "side effects"... i'll stick with this... tcm is made to prevent problems wm is meant to supress problems... and what about doctors that get sick from helping people all day... maybe the doctor should pracitce is qigong a little bit more... oh qigong is just more crackpot stuff... http://tcm.health-info.org/qigong/Introduction%20to%20Qigong.htm... well i hope for your sake you don't go in for a simple surgery and come out dead...
Tahir got kicked off because sec can't handle insults... i mean people have made fun of islam... hardline... all kinds of stuff on this site that mean alot to some people... and they haven't got kicked off... sec is in power so he thinks he can pick and choose who stays and who is being just to mean :(...

[xsecx]

am i admitting that life expectancy has a significant role in increasing life expectancy... what the fuck does that mean...?

Western medicine has had a significant role in increasing life expectancy. What do you think drove those other advancements?




so you haven't read any of my links... and why specifically do you want to marry the fda so bad...?

No, I have, but I'm asking you what you specifically have against the FDA and how it relates to every other country in the world that practices western medicine but isn't controlled by the FDA. Do you not trust any government agency, or is the FDA special?





drugs aren't natural... the human body is a natural thing... we obviously don't believe the same things about this world... i think putting synthetic man made drugs in your body is unnatural and ultimately unhealthy... there is plenty of science that backs up things like qigung... acupuncture... and i don't need science to know that when i get a headache there are certain pressure points i can press... and bang the headache is gone...

So drugs in herb form good, same drugs in pill form bad. So synthetic man made drugs that have to go through a battery of tests before they are deemed safe for consumption is bad, but herbal drugs which don't have to be and which also have side effects is good? I'm glad that you say there are plenty of studies, I'd like to see them. The point is that if it works and a it's a good idea, it gets incorporated into western medicine. I'm glad that you don't need science to know if something is a good idea or not.

[xsecx]

Tahir got kicked off because sec can't handle insults... i mean people have made fun of islam... hardline... all kinds of stuff on this site that mean alot to some people... and they haven't got kicked off... sec is in power so he thinks he can pick and choose who stays and who is being just to mean :(...

I fully understand that you're essentially a talking head for Tahir. I'm glad that you can tell me what motivates me, but of course tahir had been insulting people here for weeks and was only banned when he stopped talking and just called peoples names. I also hate to break it to you but these are my resources and I do choose who stays and who doesn't.

[TaiTseChien]

Western medicine has had a significant role in increasing life expectancy. What do you think drove those other advancements?
prove it... read this scientific paper written by PHD and MD http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Counter%20Arguments%20Paper.pdf
and just see how smart you are... now i recall you saying something about scientific resources... so read my scientific scource and then hit me back with something besides what you think about things... The article does say that WM played a small part in the increased life span of peoples... And i can except that sure... sure... but it definitly disagrees with your views on WM...




No, I have, but I'm asking you what you specifically have against the FDA and how it relates to every other country in the world that practices western medicine but isn't controlled by the FDA. Do you not trust any government agency, or is the FDA special?
see following...






So drugs in herb form good, same drugs in pill form bad. So synthetic man made drugs that have to go through a battery of tests before they are deemed safe for consumption is bad, but herbal drugs which don't have to be and which also have side effects is good? I'm glad that you say there are plenty of studies, I'd like to see them. The point is that if it works and a it's a good idea, it gets incorporated into western medicine. I'm glad that you don't need science to know if something is a good idea or not.

its much more benificial to drink herbs rather than take in pill form... so in response to your first question yes it is bad...
now for your number two... that is one specific reason why i don't like your boyfriend the FDA... The FDA has been know to approve drugs that are dangerous... it happens all the time... XsecX says, "where... when..." i say read a newspaper... if you really want to see plenty of studies... research it yourself... i'm not your mother... i just disagree with you...
so mr. scientist... do you drink wine... because there is science that says wine is good for you in small amounts... of course you don't...

[xsecx]

prove it... read this scientific paper written by PHD and MD http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Counter%20Arguments%20Paper.pdf
and just see how smart you are... now i recall you saying something about scientific resources... so read my scientific scource and then hit me back with something besides what you think about things... The article does say that WM played a small part in the increased life span of peoples... And i can except that sure... sure... but it definitly disagrees with your views on WM...

You mean the paper that says "Contemporary longevity reflects modern economic structure in conjunction with public health measures." This doesn't sound at all like it's a small part at all. Especially considering western medicine advances hand in hand with all technological advances. This article just further illustrates the point that "traditional" models of living were inferior to live today. The child mortality rate has dropped dramatically in the last 100 years, why? Because of western medicine.




see following...


uh what following? You mean the part of your post that doesn't address the question or did you forget to post a link?



its much more benificial to drink herbs rather than take in pill form... so in response to your first question yes it is bad...
now for your number two... that is one specific reason why i don't like your boyfriend the FDA... The FDA has been know to approve drugs that are dangerous... it happens all the time... XsecX says, "where... when..." i say read a newspaper... if you really want to see plenty of studies... research it yourself... i'm not your mother... i just disagree with you...
so mr. scientist... do you drink wine... because there is science that says wine is good for you in small amounts... of course you don't...

Oh ok, since you say it's more beneficial I should just believe you right? I mean you're an expert on this. Oh shit, you're not. I'm also glad you apparently also share tahir's homophobia by referring to the FDA as my boyfriend. I'm really glad you can make statements like "well no, I don't really have any facts, but just look at a paper, it's in there, I'm sure!"

and mr dumbass, if you read some of the studies you'd find that you get the same benefits from other sources, like grape juice and pomegranate's.

[Boothanew]

with the straight edge abstinance(sp?) from mind altering substances, what's the rule on perscription medication for bi-polar, and schitsophrenia and other disorders? the medication very obviously altars you'r mental state, but is it acceptable due to creating a safer mental state and a more secure reality?

I have yet to find a medacine that helps.
But if you do...take it and don't worry about it being sxe or not.

[TaiTseChien]

dear mr. xsecx... no wonder tahir made fun of you so much... how the fuck did you respond so fast... do you do anything besides sit on your ass all day and wait for someone to have an error in arguement and then jump on it... i mean seriously... you bitched so much about tahir calling people names... and i was just called a homophope and a dumbass... just cause i think your a faggot doesn't in anyway make me a homophobe... i'm not scared of you... i've got nothing against homosexuals... just homosexuals that play on their computers all day... fuck you...
so... in response to your response... you must have just read one part of that paper... that somewhat agreed with your beliefs... way to go... fantastic job... xsecrataryx... its really amazing...
"now for your number two... that is one specific reason why i don't like your boyfriend the FDA... The FDA has been know to approve drugs that are dangerous... it happens all the time..."
thats what i meant by the following... cock...
so your an expert... you haven't contributed anything to these arguements just your opinions... at least my arguements are backed up by sources...
good fucking christ... read a newspaper... or are newspapers to biased... or is it that your just to dumb... i'll go with the latter...
p.s. i'm a scientist and your gay...

[xsecx]

dear mr. xsecx... no wonder tahir made fun of you so much... how the fuck did you respond so fast... do you do anything besides sit on your ass all day and wait for someone to have an error in arguement and then jump on it... i mean seriously... you bitched so much about tahir calling people names... and i was just called a homophope and a dumbass... just cause i think your a faggot doesn't in anyway make me a homophobe... i'm not scared of you... i've got nothing against homosexuals... just homosexuals that play on their computers all day... fuck you...
so... in response to your response... you must have just read one part of that paper... that somewhat agreed with your beliefs... way to go... fantastic job... xsecrataryx... its really amazing...
"now for your number two... that is one specific reason why i don't like your boyfriend the FDA... The FDA has been know to approve drugs that are dangerous... it happens all the time..."
thats what i meant by the following... cock...
so your an expert... you haven't contributed anything to these arguements just your opinions... at least my arguements are backed up by sources...
good fucking christ... read a newspaper... or are newspapers to biased... or is it that your just to dumb... i'll go with the latter...
p.s. i'm a scientist and your gay...

it's amazing how little it takes for you kids to show your true colors.