Coffee [Archive] - Straight Edge and Hardcore Message board

straightXed

09-08-2007, 05:33 PM

Hey Guys,
I was just wondering what everyone here thought about drinking coffee while being edge...
I've heard a few people argue that because coffee contains caffeine it's a drug and shouldn't be consumed...what are your opinions on this topic?

Personally I agree that caffeine is a drug BUT I also think that:
a) if coffee truly makes you function better than as long as you drink the least amount possible then it's okay, but you shouldn’t drink more than you really need to

Okay, how does coffee make you function "better", and I'm sure many other drugs can make you function in an equally "better" manner. Are they drugs you'd also condone?

And you talk about consuming the least amount possible, that amount is zero, you don't need more than zero and zero is an attainable amount.

That said many people consume a small amount but this won't change how they function, if you are looking to gain a change in how you function after consuming caffeine then you are actively using a drug for its effect, and you have to ask yourself how is that drug ok and other drugs not ok?

and
b) if it turns out that coffee or the amount that you drink harms your body then you should stop drinking as soon as possible

But assuming you have a stance against the recreational usage of drugs (like straightedge) then how would you reconcile using caffeine for its effect? And if the only problem is the damage it causes then there are many other drugs that can be taken in moderation to avoid damage but for most its more than just the physical damage it can cause. Flip side of that is of course the fact that regular consumption will probably contribute to accumulative damage that isn't really noticeable day by day or month by month but rather it is noticed over long time periods.

and
c) as long as you make sure it's not an addiction (and if it is, you quit immediately) then it's fine

so yeah...any ideas?

Well once again, why is consumption of caffeine okay and other drugs in moderation not? I think its important to remember straightedge isn't about moderation, its a clear and definite stance against the use of drugs recreationally. I mean if you condone caffeine then whats to stop you condoning other drugs in certain moderate amounts and practices?

Basically the caffeine discussions on here will generally require you to give a reason why caffeine is ok and other drugs aren't given the same factors you have set out for caffeine being ok. And why people are set stringently against all other drugs and not caffeine?

For a lot of incidents its people not actually thinking about caffeine as a drug but when you take the time to think about it i would really like to know how you can continue think in terms of an anti drug stance whilst inconsistently condoning a drug and its effect.

PROPER JERK

09-09-2007, 04:54 AM

This topic reminded me of this shirt:

http://merchnow.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=m&Product_Code=SEOGCAFF00-TS&Category_Code=SEOG&Product_Count=10

Why is it that all straight edge clothing brands suck so bad...

Meteor

09-12-2007, 08:08 AM

Yes, coffee is a drug, but I must admit that I'm not sure if being drugfree incorporates / should incorporate coffee or caffeine.
I don't drink coffee, but I drink cola and that also contains caffeine. But I've never heard about someone getting addicted to cola. So I'm asking: Is it really the caffeine that makes you addicted?
But I know a lot people I think it's not normal how much coffee they drink.
'Cause of this I don't wanna drink coffee, but like I said I'm not sure if it might be okay to do so, so I think everybody has to decide that on his own.

Does this mean you can also smoke pot once a year?
Well, but not everyone can get addicted to caffeine. And if so, you don't get addicted to caffeine as fast as to dope. If you notice that you drink more and more coffee, you are maybe one of the people who can get addicted. Then you have to decide if you want to stop drinking coffee.

D1988

09-12-2007, 08:18 AM

Yes, coffee is a drug, but I must admit that I'm not sure if being drugfree incorporates / should incorporate coffee or caffeine.
I don't drink coffee, but I drink cola and that also contains caffeine. But I've never heard about someone getting addicted to cola. So I'm asking: Is it really the caffeine that makes you addicted?
But I know a lot people I think it's not normal how much coffee they drink.
'Cause of this I don't wanna drink coffee, but like I said I'm not sure if it might be okay to do so, so I think everybody has to decide that on his own.

Well, but not everyone can get addicted to caffiene. And if so, you don't get addicted to caffeine as fast as to dope. If you notice that you drink more and more coffee, you are maybe one of the people who can get addicted. Then you have to decide if you want to stop drinking coffee.

You just said it yourself. Caffeine is a drug, how can you live drug free if you consume a drug? Coca Cola and coffee both contain caffeine. It isn't really a matter of being addicted or how quickly you become addicted at all. Would it be OK for me to have a beer once a week aslong as I don't get addicted?

xsecx

09-12-2007, 08:53 AM

Yes, coffee is a drug, but I must admit that I'm not sure if being drugfree incorporates / should incorporate coffee or caffeine.
I don't drink coffee, but I drink cola and that also contains caffeine. But I've never heard about someone getting addicted to cola. So I'm asking: Is it really the caffeine that makes you addicted?
But I know a lot people I think it's not normal how much coffee they drink.
'Cause of this I don't wanna drink coffee, but like I said I'm not sure if it might be okay to do so, so I think everybody has to decide that on his own.

Well, but not everyone can get addicted to caffeine. And if so, you don't get addicted to caffeine as fast as to dope. If you notice that you drink more and more coffee, you are maybe one of the people who can get addicted. Then you have to decide if you want to stop drinking coffee.

you might want to do some research on caffeine addiction.

Meteor

09-13-2007, 08:14 AM

You just said it yourself. Caffeine is a drug, how can you live drug free if you consume a drug?
No, I said Coffee is a drug.
I also questioned if it's really 'cause of the caffein.
"Yes, coffee is a drug (...) I'm asking: Is it really the caffeine that makes you addicted?"
But apart from that:

Coca Cola and coffee both contain caffeine. It isn't really a matter of being addicted or how quickly you become addicted at all. Would it be OK for me to have a beer once a week aslong as I don't get addicted?

What I wanted to say was, you can get addicted to everything. You can also get addicted to chocolate, pure sugar, fat burgers, apples (yes, of course) or everything you may like. Do you define that as drugs? And if you'd waive everything that could be defined as a drug, what would remain?

Btw, caffein isn't mind-bending.
I think that could also be an argument. But that's dependent on why you don't take drugs, if you do so 'cause they are mind-blending, it's one.

xsecx

09-13-2007, 09:00 AM

No, I said Coffee is a drug.
I also questioned if it's really 'cause of the caffein.
"Yes, coffee is a drug (...) I'm asking: Is it really the caffeine that makes you addicted?"
But apart from that:

coffee isn't a drug though, caffeine is.

What I wanted to say was, you can get addicted to everything. You can also get addicted to chocolate, pure sugar, fat burgers, apples (yes, of course) or everything you may like. Do you define that as drugs? And if you'd waive everything that could be defined as a drug, what would remain?

yes, if you're prone to psychological addiction, but we're talking about physical addiction, which caffeine most certainly does cause.

Btw, caffein isn't mind-bending.
I think that could also be an argument. But that's dependent on why you don't take drugs, if you do so 'cause they are mind-blending, it's one.

define mind bending. Is nicotine mind bending? Is speed or cocaine? Why do you view caffeine differently from other drugs? WHat makes it different from others?

PROPER JERK

09-13-2007, 09:09 AM

What I wanted to say was, you can get addicted to everything. You can also get addicted to chocolate, pure sugar, fat burgers, apples (yes, of course) or everything you may like. Do you define that as drugs? And if you'd waive everything that could be defined as a drug, what would remain?

Btw, caffein isn't mind-bending.
I think that could also be an argument. But that's dependent on why you don't take drugs, if you do so 'cause they are mind-blending, it's one.

There are thousands of drugs, the recreational drugs are only a small piece of the pie. Straight Edge is a stance against recreational drugs and because caffeine is consumed recreationally (Soda, Coffee, Tea etc.) it is considered against straight edge beliefs. Some straight edge people see caffeine in soda negligible and not something to abstain from where as others see it as a significant drug and something to avoid.

Your argument above about addictive substances and also damaging substances doesn't really apply to straight edge either, again it is recreational drug use that straight edge individuals abstain from.

xsecx

09-13-2007, 09:51 AM

you might also want to read http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0119_050119_ngm_caffeine.html

Meteor

09-13-2007, 12:43 PM

coffee isn't a drug though, caffeine is.
Depends on how you define "drug".
I don't see Tea or Cola as a drug.

yes, if you're prone to psychological addiction, but we're talking about physical addiction, which caffeine most certainly does cause.
Finally, addiction is addiction.

define mind bending. Is nicotine mind bending? Is speed or cocaine? Why do you view caffeine differently from other drugs? What makes it different from others?

Argh "mind-bending" was the wrong word. Sorry, dunno the right word for that, I mean, every drug has an effect, that makes you do things you usually wouldn't do, I mean, someone who took cocain isn't "normal", from nicotine you can also get a "nicotine-flash". But that someone gets a "caffein-flash" is extrem unusually, and it's not the same as with nicotine. It's like... from caffein you don't become so "strange" as from other drugs. Do you know what I mean? The real bad effect is missing. It's just something you may like and you may get addicted from. But like I said, I dunno anyone who's physical addicted of cola.

There are thousands of drugs, the recreational drugs are only a small piece of the pie. Straight Edge is a stance against recreational drugs and because caffeine is consumed recreationally (Soda, Coffee, Tea etc.) it is considered against straight edge beliefs. Some straight edge people see caffeine in soda negligible and not something to abstain from where as others see it as a significant drug and something to avoid.

No of the "founders" of straight edge ever said "don't drink caffein! It's a drug", did he? It wasn't the basic idea of straight edge not do drink caffein. That opinion was brought into the scene by extreme-straight edgers (people who fabricated more rules for straight edge), just like vegetarism or veganism. If you think that to you, caffein is a drug, I won't tell you the contrary. But not everyone thinks so and that's okay.

Your argument above about addictive substances and also damaging substances doesn't really apply to straight edge either, again it is recreational drug use that straight edge individuals abstain from.

That results the next question: How do you define "recreational drug"?
Do you call Heroin "recreational"?

xsecx

09-13-2007, 01:04 PM

Depends on how you define "drug".
I don't see Tea or Cola as a drug.

neither is coffee, but both contain the drug caffeine.

Finally, addiction is addiction.

not really. they are totally different. Physical addiction is an absolute where psychological isn't. Using the terms addiction to describe someone who plays a lot of video games and someone who has a chemcial dependency on a drug isn't anywhere near the same thing.

Argh "mind-bending" was the wrong word. Sorry, dunno the right word for that, I mean, every drug has an effect, that makes you do things you usually wouldn't do, I mean, someone who took cocain isn't "normal", from nicotine you can also get a "nicotine-flash". But that someone gets a "caffein-flash" is extrem unusually, and it's not the same as with nicotine. It's like... from caffein you don't become so "strange" as from other drugs. Do you know what I mean? The real bad effect is missing. It's just something you may like and you may get addicted from. But like I said, I dunno anyone who's physical addicted of cola.

take a step back and look at it objectively. look at what you're trying to argue and then think is someone else who used nicotine or pot or etc couldn't try and make the same argument. Nicotine and caffeine are extremely similar. All of the "negative" effects from nicotine come from the consumption of tobacco, not the nicotine itself. So would you chew nicotine gum? Neither drug alters personality or perception. so why are you against one and ok with another? Caffeine is the most widely abused drug on earth, so chances are you do.

PROPER JERK

09-13-2007, 08:47 PM

That results the next question: How do you define "recreational drug"?
Do you call Heroin "recreational"?

I assume you are talking about morphine/heroin used as a painkiller in hospitals and other medical situations. Isn't this one pretty easy? Using opioids in a medical situation is a lot different to shooting some junk to get high. Obviously the second situation is using the drug recreationally and you ask how you can define a recreational drug? It isn't just illegal drugs that are used recreationally. Sleeping pills, Antidepressants, Anti Psychotics and Painkillers are used for recreational purposes just as much as the illegal drugs and it is fairly easy to distinguish when a drug is being used for medical purposes and when it is used recreationally.

I will break it down into black and white for you just to make sure it gets through.

Recreational Drug Use:

Using a substance for non medical reasons
Using a substance to feel a high
Abusing a substance to create ill effects

Now here you might say, well caffeine is different to that but really how is it? Most caffeine consumers use caffeine to stay awake or become more alert, what is the difference in using caffeine to stay awake than using ecstasy to stay awake except for potency? And the argument saying you don't consume caffeine to stay awake is like me saying I don't drink alcohol to get drunk so therefore it is alright.

Meteor

09-15-2007, 05:22 PM

neither is coffee, but both contain the drug caffeine.
>.< I don't wanna say the same again and again.
Just read what I wrote in posts before.

not really. they are totally different. Physical addiction is an absolute where psychological isn't. Using the terms addiction to describe someone who plays a lot of video games and someone who has a chemcial dependency on a drug isn't anywhere near the same thing.
Yes that's true but who doesn't want to get addicted you don't care about physical addiction and psychological addiction, no one would say "I don't take those drugs 'cause I don't want to get physical addicted, but I take these drugs from which I just could get psychological addicted, what's not so bad".
Finally, you don't make this differentiation.
To simplfy: Addiction = Bad. Doesn't matter which kind of.

take a step back and look at it objectively. look at what you're trying to argue and then think is someone else who used nicotine or pot or etc couldn't try and make the same argument. Nicotine and caffeine are extremely similar. All of the "negative" effects from nicotine come from the consumption of tobacco, not the nicotine itself. So would you chew nicotine gum? Neither drug alters personality or perception.

Just read what I wrote before, that'll answer the question why I won't chew nicotine gum.
I said several times that there are multiple things that make a drug a drug. Not just the fact that they make "negative effects" and not just the fact that they are addictive and so on.

You write something to one thing I said, and then you ask a question (to what I said afterwards) that would be answered by what I said before. Better just read the whole text and not just the little parts, or we'll have 2 multiple Threads in one.

so why are you against one and ok with another? Caffeine is the most widely abused drug on earth, so chances are you do.
You ask permanently the same questions I already answered.

I assume you are talking about morphine/heroin used as a painkiller in hospitals and other medical situations. Isn't this one pretty easy? Using opioids in a medical situation is a lot different to shooting some junk to get high. Obviously the second situation is using the drug recreationally and you ask how you can define a recreational drug? It isn't just illegal drugs that are used recreationally. Sleeping pills, Antidepressants, Anti Psychotics and Painkillers are used for recreational purposes just as much as the illegal drugs and it is fairly easy to distinguish when a drug is being used for medical purposes and when it is used recreationally.

No I didn't talk about painkillers in hospitals. I'm not from America and here it isn't allowed to take heroin as a painkiller.

Now here you might say, well caffeine is different to that but really how is it? Most caffeine consumers use caffeine to stay awake or become more alert, what is the difference in using caffeine to stay awake than using ecstasy to stay awake except for potency? And the argument saying you don't consume caffeine to stay awake is like me saying I don't drink alcohol to get drunk so therefore it is alright.

You compare two drugs you can't compare. Ecstasy to stay awake? No one takes Ecstasy just to stay awake.
And what you say about drinking alcohol not to get drunk has nothing to do with what I said. And I didn't say that it's okay to consume caffeine if you don't do it to stay awake. I said it's okay to consume caffeine at all.

I think what you two are saying becomes from post to post more far-fetched and partially you're repeating what you said before.
And I see no sense in discussing with you about if it's okay to consume caffeine while being straight edge, what was the main question of this thread. No one except you and a few extreme-straight edgers ever said that it isn't. And you aren't the ones to decide it, realize that. I think your arguments don't persuade, and you'll have to accept that.

mouseman004

09-15-2007, 06:04 PM

xsecx

09-15-2007, 06:49 PM

>.< I don't wanna say the same again and again.
Just read what I wrote in posts before.

I did, and the fact remains that for some reason you think coffee is a drug, when in fact caffeine is the drug, the drug that is in tea, coffee and cola. Is the fact lost on your that caffeine was used to replace cocaine in cola? I really don't think you even have a basic understanding of what a drug is. It may be a language thing, but I doubt it at this point.

Yes that's true but who doesn't want to get addicted you don't care about physical addiction and psychological addiction, no one would say "I don't take those drugs 'cause I don't want to get physical addicted, but I take these drugs from which I just could get psychological addicted, what's not so bad".
Finally, you don't make this differentiation.
To simplfy: Addiction = Bad. Doesn't matter which kind of.

Sure, but to talk about about things that aren't drugs as addictive isn't anywhere near the same thing. That's the point. Caffeine is physically addictive, so why would you use it? What is your actual point?

Just read what I wrote before, that'll answer the question why I won't chew nicotine gum.
I said several times that there are multiple things that make a drug a drug. Not just the fact that they make "negative effects" and not just the fact that they are addictive and so on.

You write something to one thing I said, and then you ask a question (to what I said afterwards) that would be answered by what I said before. Better just read the whole text and not just the little parts, or we'll have 2 multiple Threads in one.

You may think that you've already answered it but you haven't. Are you trying to say that nicotine affects people and alters their personality? Your logic is completely broken, and that's why the questions are asked, to challenge how you're thinking about it. There is nothing special or unique about caffeine in comparison to other drugs, but for some reason you want to treat it differently. The main question is why. And from what I can actually tell from your posts is because you like cola and not because of any real reason.

You ask permanently the same questions I already answered.

Where did you answer it?

I think what you two are saying becomes from post to post more far-fetched and partially you're repeating what you said before.
And I see no sense in discussing with you about if it's okay to consume caffeine while being straight edge, what was the main question of this thread. No one except you and a few extreme-straight edgers ever said that it isn't. And you aren't the ones to decide it, realize that. I think your arguments don't persuade, and you'll have to accept that.

Things get repeated when you fail to answer them. I fail to understand how you can look at recreational drug use, any recreational drug use as straight edge. Everything you've said here demonstrates that you think that caffeine is a recreational drug, and that you really have not done any research on it, have any understanding of addiction, or have spent any time thinking about anything other than how much you like coke.

straightXed

09-16-2007, 04:50 AM

>.< I don't wanna say the same again and again.
Just read what I wrote in posts before.

Yes that's true but who doesn't want to get addicted you don't care about physical addiction and psychological addiction, no one would say "I don't take those drugs 'cause I don't want to get physical addicted, but I take these drugs from which I just could get psychological addicted, what's not so bad".
Finally, you don't make this differentiation.
To simplify: Addiction = Bad. Doesn't matter which kind of.

I hope you don't mind me adding a few words here, The addiction thing, the difference you are stressing really makes no ground. Whilst there is every possibility of caffeine addiction, being that it is an addictive substance, if that possibility were eroded due to it hypothetically not being addictive then it would still be a drug. Caffeine is a stimulant and effects the central nervous system and has overall drug like effects on the body, its categorically classed as a drug and if its addictive or not really makes no difference in terms of people consistently being against recreational drug use. I mean LSD for example is non addictive yet is a drug and not condoned within straightedge or any sensible anti drug stance. Point is don't focus on the addictive quality of the drug as the sole reason to abstain from it when there are many other adverse effects that should also be taken into account.

Just read what I wrote before, that'll answer the question why I won't chew nicotine gum.
I said several times that there are multiple things that make a drug a drug. Not just the fact that they make "negative effects" and not just the fact that they are addictive and so on.

You do realize how caffeine effects you right? Because it really seemed like you played the effect down in comparison to other drugs in previous posts. I mean you said the real bad effect is missing, how are degradation to the central nervous system, many adverse effects on health(including high blood pressure, heart disease, respiratory conditions, osteoporosis, cancers, birth defects, infertility, ulcers etc.) mood altering effects and of course everything that is bundled in with addiction i.e. irritability, stress, mood swings not real bad effects? We all agree all drugs are different but what is also different is the way they are consumed and the attitudes towards them. Caffeine addiction isn't noticeable as its a very readily available drug, people consume it daily in multiple doses. If you were to compare a single dosage of cocaine to a single dosage of caffeine then obviously caffeine would look weak and insignificant however when you look at the regularity of and quantity of caffeine ingestion over a longer period of time, well it just illustrates why its actually a pretty sensible idea to avoid it.

Earlier you also posted about how if some people think caffeine is a drug then you won't say contrary but that some people don't think its a drug. I just want to say, its not that we have chosen to view it as a drug, it actually is a drug medically and to ignore that is plain ignorance. And further more no one has added rules to straightedge, they have just taken the time to look at the existing fabric that makes up what straight edge is. Straightedge is against drug use, thats nothing new, caffeine is a drug, again thats nothing new.

No I didn't talk about painkillers in hospitals. I'm not from America and here it isn't allowed to take heroin as a painkiller.

They don't have morphine where you are?

I will break it down into black and white for you just to make sure it gets through.

Recreational Drug Use:

Using a substance for non medical reasons
Using a substance to feel a high
Abusing a substance to create ill effects

Using a substance for non medical reasons and Using a substance to feel a high are both definitely covered by drinking caffeine. Abusing a substance to create ill effects is not really an accurate definition of recreational drug use in all cases.

And what you say about drinking alcohol not to get drunk has nothing to do with what I said. And I didn't say that it's okay to consume caffeine if you don't do it to stay awake. I said it's okay to consume caffeine at all.

Ummm,not sure exactly what you are saying here?

I think what you two are saying becomes from post to post more far-fetched and partially you're repeating what you said before.
And I see no sense in discussing with you about if it's okay to consume caffeine while being straight edge, what was the main question of this thread. No one except you and a few extreme-straight edgers ever said that it isn't. And you aren't the ones to decide it, realize that. I think your arguments don't persuade, and you'll have to accept that.

Why do you see no sense in discussing it? And its not about anyone saying you can't consume caffeine, its about you actually looking at the objective points raised and then being able to qualify how it still actually makes sense to be drug free and take drugs. The arguments aren't likely to persuade if you ignore them and refuse to look at them objectively, if you are not interested in actually holding your opinions up to objective scrutiny then it just makes for weaker opinions. You don't have to be agree with us but it would be nice to see cohesive reasons why you don't, discussion can be a way for people to learn both ways but so far you don't seem to even want to accept fundamental facts. You seem to want to dispute what a drug is but give no support for that dispute, i mean this is an objective forum, people here dispute things and its a great way to strengthen your opinions and values. People here have taken the time to think about there personal opinions and we aren't trying to convince anyone of anything but the truthful facts, we aren't going to say you can't drink caffeine we will just question how that makes sense when its a drug and straightedge is an anti drug stance. I mean mouseman still drinks caffeine and realizes that it is a bit of a contradiction to call himself straightedge whilst consuming a drug, my girlfriend is the same. However it often seems that people want to cling onto the label of straightedge regardless of contradiction and to be honest thats just unfortunate because its a pretty silly attitude to take. Try objectivity, its like the new frontier!

PROPER JERK

09-16-2007, 07:14 AM

You compare two drugs you can't compare. Ecstasy to stay awake? No one takes Ecstasy just to stay awake.
And what you say about drinking alcohol not to get drunk has nothing to do with what I said. And I didn't say that it's okay to consume caffeine if you don't do it to stay awake. I said it's okay to consume caffeine at all.

Truck Drivers all over the world use speed and ecstasy to stay awake. It is also quite common here that nurses use speed to stay awake for their night shifts. I think you have missed the whole point here, I wasn't saying whether caffeine use is or is not acceptable while claiming sxe I just tried to bring it to your attention that it is a drug that is used recreationally.

Meteor

09-16-2007, 03:03 PM

They don't have morphine where you are?

Truck Drivers all over the world use speed and ecstasy to stay awake. It is also quite common here that nurses use speed to stay awake for their night shifts.

Wtf? All over the world? Where do you come from?
That's totally converse here.
I can affirm you that here (in Germany) they don't.
... like we say here: "andere Länder, andere Sitten!"
(I think in english you say: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!")

I notice the way to deal with drugs is totally different here than in other countries. Could be a reason why you all think caffeine is a bad fatal drug.

There is nothing special or unique about caffeine in comparison to other drugs, but for some reason you want to treat it differently. The main question is why. And from what I can actually tell from your posts is because you like cola and not because of any real reason.
No that's not the reason -.-' I speak for everyone who consumes caffeine. They aren't druggies!
You said there is nothing special to caffeine in comparison to other drugs. I'm starting to think that where you guys come from (America?) caffeine IS nearly the same as other drugs. But here the way how to handle with caffeine is very different to that. The people have bad contact to drugs at all and if they use them, they do it in a different way. Nearly every adult drinks coffee, it's normal (I don't say I think that's good) and it isn't used as a drug.
It's like you say "w

caffiene is a drug, there is no question about it. it is why i am not edge.
That's your opinion.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor
I will break it down into black and white for you just to make sure it gets through.

Recreational Drug Use:

Using a substance for non medical reasons
Using a substance to feel a high
Abusing a substance to create ill effects"

HEY! That wasn't what I said! If you qoute something, you have to pay attention to WHO wrote it! That was posted by PROPER JERK!

May sound like an excuse, but the discussion starts getting confusing and unclear.
Can't you be brief?
You have to consider I learn English for just 4 years and your texts are a world too long to answer everything and everyone here is argueing with me -.-''

I conform to the main rules of straight edge, and they don't say you mustn't consume caffeine.
Stop trying to change my opinion or persuade me to think I'm not edge 'cause I sometimes drink cola just 'cause it tastes good (and not to stay awake or what ever)!

xsecx

09-16-2007, 03:27 PM

I notice the way to deal with drugs is totally different here than in other countries. Could be a reason why you all think caffeine is a bad fatal drug.

where did anyone said that they thought that caffeine was a bad fatal drug?

No that's not the reason -.-' I speak for everyone who consumes caffeine. They aren't druggies!
You said there is nothing special to caffeine in comparison to other drugs. I'm starting to think that where you guys come from (America?) caffeine IS nearly the same as other drugs. But here the way how to handle with caffeine is very different to that. The people have bad contact to drugs at all and if they use them, they do it in a different way. Nearly every adult drinks coffee, it's normal (I don't say I think that's good) and it isn't used as a drug.
It's like you say "w

Again, you're reacting, but not thinking about what is being said, because of your own habits. You're not looking at this objectively. Objectively caffeine is no different than any OTHER drug that people use and abuse. I also think you might want to think about the fact that the people who have written you back here, most haven't been from America. I think I'm actually the only american that has actually. This is the point that you fail to get. Why does nearly every adult drink coffee? Is it because they need it to stay awake? Is the FACT that caffeine is the most abuse drug in the world completely lost on you? Again, I don't think you've actually taken the time to sit back and look at this at all objectively.

I conform to the main rules of straight edge, and they don't say you mustn't consume caffeine.
Stop trying to change my opinion or persuade me to think I'm not edge 'cause I sometimes drink cola just 'cause it tastes good (and not to stay awake or what ever)!

and what are those main rules? So if someone likes the taste of beer and drinks one every once in a while, that's consistent with someone who is edge's beliefs,right?

straightXed

09-16-2007, 04:33 PM

I notice the way to deal with drugs is totally different here than in other countries. Could be a reason why you all think caffeine is a bad fatal drug.

Who said it was fatal?

No that's not the reason -.-' I speak for everyone who consumes caffeine. They aren't druggies!

Nor is someone who has an occasional beer then.

You said there is nothing special to caffeine in comparison to other drugs. I'm starting to think that where you guys come from (America?) caffeine IS nearly the same as other drugs. But here the way how to handle with caffeine is very different to that. The people have bad contact to drugs at all and if they use them, they do it in a different way. Nearly every adult drinks coffee, it's normal (I don't say I think that's good) and it isn't used as a drug.
It's like you say "w

all drugs are used differently, you can't say it isn't used like a drug when it is a drug. Its used in its native way and that is being used like a drug. Its not being used like heroin but heroin isn't used like LSD and you shouldn't say one is a drug and one isn't. People do often use coffee to wake up, stay alert, as a bit of a pick me up.

HEY! That wasn't what I said! If you qoute something, you have to pay attention to WHO wrote it! That was posted by PROPER JERK!

Unfortunately before you edited your post it seemed as if you wrote it as you had omitted to keep those words in quotes. Even so, the point stands that caffeine fits the definition of being a recreational drug.

May sound like an excuse, but the discussion starts getting confusing and unclear.
Can't you be brief?
You have to consider I learn English for just 4 years and your texts are a world too long to answer everything and everyone here is argueing with me -.-''

Try answering one post at a time instead of mixing each post together, that will keep things clear and avoid mistakes like not quoting what you are replying to.

I conform to the main rules of straight edge, and they don't say you mustn't consume caffeine.
Stop trying to change my opinion or persuade me to think I'm not edge 'cause I sometimes drink cola just 'cause it tastes good (and not to stay awake or what ever)!

No ones trying to change your opinion they are just highlighting areas which they feel don't make sense, if you can explain how they make sense then please do. It doesn't matter if you are drinking it just for the taste its still a drug isn't it?

Meteor

09-17-2007, 08:18 AM

where did anyone said that they thought that caffeine was a bad fatal
Nowhere, but that's how you talk about it.

Again, I don't think you've actually taken the time to sit back and look at this at all objectively.
I AM looking at it objectively.

I also think you might want to think about the fact that the people who have written you back here, most haven't been from America. I think I'm actually the only american that has actually. This is the point that you fail to get.
Do you know this: "?" ? That means "this is a question!" I didn't say you are all Americans, I wanted to know where you come from.

So if someone likes the taste of beer and drinks one every once in a while, that's consistent with someone who is edge's beliefs,right?
I never said that it's okay to take drugs just 'cause you like it, I said that to make clear that I DON'T drink cola to stay awake! Why do you all think that people just consume coffeine to stay awake or whatever?

Why does nearly every adult drink coffee? Is it because they need it to stay awake?
NO I already said that, they aren't interested in staying awake! Here it's common or even traditional to drink coffee. The adults meet each other to drink coffee. They say "hey, do you want to come over for coffee?". And Partys with the family, for example on birthdays, mostly start at 4 'o clock, and this time is generally called "Kaffeezeit" (coffeetime). In the afternoon the adults drink coffee and the kids apple juice. That's not the time where you need to stay awake. Is that so difficult to understand?

And if you say "drugs" no one thinks about coffee. Sciantifical (or whatever) in the strict sense defined it is a drug, that do most people know, but when people say "drugs" they don't incorporate caffein, and I'm sure also people like for example the guys from minor threat didn't want the people to condemn caffein when they sang songs against drugs.

xsecx

09-17-2007, 08:42 AM

Nowhere, but that's how you talk about it.

and what was said that leads you to that?

I AM looking at it objectively.

your posts don't really reflect that at all.

I never said that it's okay to take drugs just 'cause you like it, I said that to make clear that I DON'T drink cola to stay awake! Why do you all think that people just consume coffeine to stay awake or whatever?

Then why do you drink cola? Because you like it and feel like it. Right? Whether you choose to admit it or not, the caffeine in cola is acting as a stimulant to your body. That's the point that you don't seem to understand. Whether or not you are using it to stay awake, it's going to have that effect.

NO I already said that, they aren't interested in staying awake! Here it's common or even traditional to drink coffee. The adults meet each other to drink coffee. They say "hey, do you want to come over for coffee?". And Partys with the family, for example on birthdays, mostly start at 4 'o clock, and this time is generally called "Kaffeezeit" (coffeetime). In the afternoon the adults drink coffee and the kids apple juice. That's not the time where you need to stay awake. Is that so difficult to understand?

So that's the only time coffee is drank? It isn't drunk at the beginning of the day and throughout the day?

And if you say "drugs" no one thinks about coffee. Sciantifical (or whatever) in the strict sense defined it is a drug, that do most people know, but when people say "drugs" they don't incorporate caffein, and I'm sure also people like for example the guys from minor threat didn't want the people to condemn caffein when they sang songs against drugs.
That's exactly the point. It's so accepted that people don't even think about it for what it actually is. It's so abused and ingrained that people don't think it's a drug and why more people are addicted to caffeine than any other drug on earth.

Meteor

09-18-2007, 07:50 AM

Then why do you drink cola? Because you like it and feel like it. Right?
Eh no... most time, because there is no apple juice left xD

So that's the only time coffee is drank? It isn't drunk at the beginning of the day and throughout the day?
Many people also drink coffee in the morning. Well, I must admit, some of them think they need a cup of coffee in the morning. But they can live without I think.

and what was said that leads you to that?
You're so upset "oh it's a drug, it's a drug, damn it!" just on principle, and don't think about a real reason what's bad with it. Straight edge has got reasons why it's against drugs, it doesn't just as a matter of prinicple say "it's a drug, so it's bad".

xsecx

09-18-2007, 09:08 AM

Eh no... most time, because there is no apple juice left xD

it's a rough world you live in where the only option for a drink is cola. also, why do you choose to ignore the rest of my quote there?

Many people also drink coffee in the morning. Well, I must admit, some of them think they need a cup of coffee in the morning. But they can live without I think.

yes, but they'll feel the effects of withdrawal if they do.

You're so upset "oh it's a drug, it's a drug, damn it!" just on principle, and don't think about a real reason what's bad with it. Straight edge has got reasons why it's against drugs, it doesn't just as a matter of prinicple say "it's a drug, so it's bad".
So you're only against drugs that are "bad"? What about drugs with no negative side effects or addictive qualities like LSD or marijuana then? I'm against using drugs recreationally, all drugs. Not drugs that I find good or drugs I find bad. If there isn't a medical reason to use a drug, I won't use it. The way you're viewing drug use is completely inconsistent. Also what reasons does straight edge have to be against drugs?

Meteor

09-18-2007, 01:06 PM

it's a rough world you live in where the only option for a drink is cola.

xD I mean theres only Cola in the frigde and no apple juice 'cause my brother drunk it ;D
And I don't like tap water^^ but sure, if I'd hate cola I'd find something else to drink ;)

also, why do you choose to ignore the rest of my quote there?

'Cause I regard it as unnecessary to answer it.

So you're only against drugs that are "bad"? What about drugs with no negative side effects or addictive qualities like LSD or marijuana then?
WHAT? You say LSD and Marijuana DON'T have negative side effects or addictive qualities?
Omg, seems you dunno what youre talking about! I've seen what happens to people who smoke marijuana, and you can get (psychologically) addicted to it.
And, don't you call it a negative "side effect", if you can't remember what you've done the last nights, think a knife is a toy or a sweet, are afraid of nonexistent persons you imagine, and finally loose all your friends?

xsecx

09-18-2007, 01:37 PM

xD I mean theres only Cola in the frigde and no apple juice 'cause my brother drunk it ;D
And I don't like tap water^^ but sure, if I'd hate cola I'd find something else to drink ;)

so why not drink a beer then?

'Cause I regard it as unnecessary to answer it.

it's really funny that what you regard as unnecessary is the actual discussion about drugs.
What you pick to talk about what to ignore is actually really telling.

WHAT? You say LSD and Marijuana DON'T have negative side effects or addictive qualities?
Omg, seems you dunno what youre talking about! I've seen what happens to people who smoke marijuana, and you can get (psychologically) addicted to it.
And, don't you call it a negative "side effect", if you can't remember what you've done the last nights, think a knife is a toy or a sweet, are afraid of nonexistent persons you imagine, and finally loose all your friends?

and you WILL get physically addicted to caffeine, what's your point? This is exactly demonstrative of the point I'm trying to make, you have these lines of good drugs and bad drugs. What makes a drug bad then? What are the long term negative effects of LSD use? What are the long term negative effects of Marijuana use? And What are the long term negative effects of caffeine use? You sound like a bad anti drug commercial.

Meteor

09-19-2007, 07:42 AM

I think no one here's going to deliver himself of an opinion, so why are we still argueing instead of just accepting the other's opinions?
This discussion will get you nowhere.

xsecx

09-19-2007, 08:09 AM

I think no one here's going to deliver himself of an opinion, so why are we still argueing instead of just accepting the other's opinions?
This discussion will get you nowhere.

because you haven't actually supported your opinion?

Chrizzi

09-19-2007, 09:48 AM

Maybe Meteor will get an explanation in German language in a few days, I think there are some passages in which he just doesn't understand you.
And: Caffeine is a drug, it's not straight edge to drink coffein... (Although there are many edgers I know which don't think so...)

Meteor

09-19-2007, 12:57 PM

And: Caffeine is a drug, it's not straight edge to drink coffein... (Although there are many edgers I know which don't think so...)

I think it's a question of your opinion. It's like vegitarism: if you want to, it can be part of straight edge to you, but it doesn't have to.
Everyone has to decide for himself.

rodrigo

09-19-2007, 01:11 PM

I think it's a question of your opinion. It's like vegitarism: if you want to, it can be part of straight edge to you, but it doesn't have to.
Everyone has to decide for himself.
not really the same, sxe is a stand in hardcore against drugs. caffeine is a drug, wether you drink coffee for the caffeine or for the taste does not change the fact that it contains a drug.

and for the worst, when you get confronted and you findyourself trapped in a corner, you chose to not answer dusty's questions and throw it all as it depends on personal opinion.

xsecx

09-19-2007, 01:43 PM

I think it's a question of your opinion. It's like vegitarism: if you want to, it can be part of straight edge to you, but it doesn't have to.
Everyone has to decide for himself.

opinions only matter when they're informed and backed up by facts.

Chrizzi

09-20-2007, 03:42 AM

not really the same, sxe is a stand in hardcore against drugs. caffeine is a drug, wether you drink coffee for the caffeine or for the taste does not change the fact that it contains a drug.

Not the same at all, as straight edge is defined by not taking drugs and not by not eating animals...

rodrigo

09-20-2007, 07:54 AM

Not the same at all, as straight edge is defined by not taking drugs and not by not eating animals...
so... why did you quote me?

Meteor

09-20-2007, 08:11 AM

I asked a few german straight-edgers the same question like in this thread, and they offended me, I was a wannabe, 'cause I ask them for their opinion 'bout caffein.
They all drank coffee and tea and so on, and found it absurd to ask for any other points of view, 'cause everyone has to decide himself. Strangely enough they said at the same time, I'd be a murderer 'cause I'm not vegetarian XD (<laughing smilie).
Okay, that's crazy I think.

Chrizzi

09-20-2007, 08:11 AM

so... why did you quote me?
To support and even intensify your statement, because for me, if someone says "not REALLY" it means, that there might be some slight common things, which I don't think are there in this case...

xsecx

09-20-2007, 09:30 AM

Chrizzi

09-20-2007, 12:24 PM

I also asked some German edgers and not one of them called me a "wannabe", they all had the opinion, that caffeine might be a drug (or is a drug) and so they said, that coffee quite good might something you should not consume at all, but there were also some people, who said, that caffeine is something you should not care too much about because it needs a (very) high dose of it, to take any recognizable effect at all.
But no one of them would dare to say, that caffeine isn't a drug...

Meteor

09-20-2007, 01:15 PM

Hm, strange how opinion is deeply divided on this issue.

But no one of them would dare to say, that caffeine isn't a drug...

Dunno if you read it, but I wrote before

Sciantifical (or whatever) in the strict sense defined it is a drug

Slober

09-20-2007, 01:47 PM

I used to be addicted to cola. When I didn't drink it for couple of days my muscles started to "hurt" and I'd have a headache.

Meteor

09-21-2007, 08:42 AM

I used to be addicted to cola. When I didn't drink it for couple of days my muscles started to "hurt" and I'd have a headache.

What? O.O
Are you sure?
Omg, that's hard.
Never heard about something like that.

But that could also happen with many other groceries, couldn't it?

xsecx

09-21-2007, 08:47 AM

What? O.O
Are you sure?
Omg, that's hard.
Never heard about something like that.

But that could also happen with many other groceries, couldn't it?

have you seriously not looked into caffeine addiction and it's effects at all?

Chrizzi

09-21-2007, 09:13 AM

I don't think he has...

straightXed

09-21-2007, 09:13 AM

What? O.O
Are you sure?
Omg, that's hard.
Never heard about something like that.

But that could also happen with many other groceries, couldn't it?

Only groceries containing addictive substances like the drug caffeine, although there was a rumour when i was growing up that a certain branned of tinned chopped meat contained mescaline.

Meteor

09-21-2007, 03:19 PM

Of course, I have.
Never mind.

Never ending disussion without any sign of agreement^^

@straightxed:
Could also happen if there weren't addictive substances.

straightXed

09-21-2007, 03:31 PM

Of course, I have.
Never mind.

Never ending disussion without any sign of agreement^^

@straightxed:
Could also happen if there weren't addictive substances.

Not really, addictive substances cause physical addiction not non addictive ones. If you are going to try and argue a psychological addiction then you have to remember that thats a behavioral thing and whilst you could point at particular groceries they would not be the cause of the addiction or the aches, pains or side effects, that would be caused by your own brain, not random groceries.

xsecx

09-21-2007, 03:35 PM

Of course, I have.
Never mind.

everything that you've said up until this point really leads me, and others to believe that you really don't have even a basic understanding of it though. How could you have never heard of it when it's a textbook example of what happens when someone is going through withdrawal from caffeine addiction?

Meteor

09-21-2007, 04:30 PM

I heard it all before...
But the exception proves the rule.

xsecx

09-21-2007, 07:37 PM

I heard it all before...
But the exception proves the rule.

what are you talking about?

PROPER JERK

09-22-2007, 12:04 AM

What? O.O
Are you sure?
Omg, that's hard.
Never heard about something like that.

But that could also happen with many other groceries, couldn't it?

I used to be a heavy coke drinker and I started getting a stiff jaw and sore neck muscles if I didn't have any. It's like the same as alcohol, you don't notice much effects if you have a couple here and there.

Meteor

09-22-2007, 08:32 AM

what are you talking about?
Just what I said(?)

Hm dunno

xsecx

09-22-2007, 08:34 AM

Just what I said(?)

Hm dunno

what you said didn't make any sense though. what exception proves what rule?

Meteor

09-22-2007, 01:41 PM

The exception of a few people like PROPER JERK proves the rule that you don't get addicted to cola

straightXed

09-22-2007, 02:09 PM

The exception of a few people like PROPER JERK proves the rule that you don't get addicted to cola

I assume you mean caffeine not cola. And people being addicted to caffeine hardly proves that people don't get addicted to it. Again you seem to be displaying a lack of understanding of exactly how addiction to caffeine manifests itself.

xsecx

09-22-2007, 02:32 PM

The exception of a few people like PROPER JERK proves the rule that you don't get addicted to cola

https://hopkinsnet.jhu.edu/servlet/page?_pageid=1721&_dad=portal30p&_schema=PORTAL30P

"According to the report, caffeine is the most widely used behaviorally active drug in the world. In North America, 80 percent to 90 percent of adults report regular use of caffeine. Average daily intake of caffeine among caffeine consumers in the United States is about 280 milligrams, or about one to two mugs of coffee or three to five bottles of soft drink, with higher intakes estimated in some European countries. In the United States, coffee and soft drinks are the most common sources of caffeine, with almost half of caffeine consumers ingesting caffeine from multiple sources, including tea."

seriously, you don't know what you're talking about and are straight up wrong.

xmegx

10-12-2007, 08:57 PM

xsecx

10-12-2007, 09:03 PM

what do yall think about taking PRESCRIPTION meds and like tylenol?

some ppl and really hxc and won't even take meds if they are sick. i can see the point that like adderrall messes with your original brain, but im on it and better for it.

where do you stand on that issue?

and yall are nitpicking bout lil stuff. its not a big deal, you want coffee, drink damn coffee, want coke, drink damn coke.

personal feelings override xxx "bi-laws".

prescription drugs are used medicinally, so it's totally different than talking about recreational drug use.

how is having people be consistent on their views nitpicking? If you're against drug use, then what makes caffeine different from any other drug on the "bad" list?

D1988

10-13-2007, 06:50 AM

its not a big deal, you want coffee, drink damn coffee, want coke, drink damn coke.

It's no big deal, if you drink coke or coffee you ain't damn drug free.

mouseman004

10-13-2007, 10:32 AM

It's no big deal, if you drink coke or coffee you ain't damn drug free.

On a side note that is somewhat related to this:

So I have finally quit drinking caffinated pop. Its been two weeks since I have had one. I realise that doesnt sound like a big deal to most people, but when you drank as much as I did on a daily basis, it is definately hard just to stop entirely.

I am working on quitting caffiene entirely, but I am taking it steps at a time, I average about a coffee a week, so its coming around.

xsecx

10-13-2007, 10:51 AM

On a side note that is somewhat related to this:

So I have finally quit drinking caffinated pop. Its been two weeks since I have had one. I realise that doesnt sound like a big deal to most people, but when you drank as much as I did on a daily basis, it is definately hard just to stop entirely.

I am working on quitting caffiene entirely, but I am taking it steps at a time, I average about a coffee a week, so its coming around.

have you noticed any difference?

xmegx

10-13-2007, 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=D1988]It's no big deal, if you drink coke or coffee you ain't damn drug free.

well i guess we have different opinions. i drink both, but im sxe. i have never, will never drink or do DRUGS.

soda and coffee are a drink that in moderation are fine for most people's bodies. and besides- you live only once.

and you can addicted to anything, tv,music, coffee, drugs, alcolhol, dang you can get addicted to stuff thats non-addicting.

so what are we supposed to do? never do anything for fear we will become addicted.
thats living in fear, something i dont think any one here is for.

xsecx

10-13-2007, 03:29 PM

well i guess we have different opinions. i drink both, but im sxe. i have never, will never drink or do DRUGS.

soda and coffee are a drink that in moderation are fine for most people's bodies. and besides- you live only once.

and you can addicted to anything, tv,music, coffee, drugs, alcolhol, dang you can get addicted to stuff thats non-addicting.

so what are we supposed to do? never do anything for fear we will become addicted.
thats living in fear, something i dont think any one here is for.

You can't say you don't do drugs and then talk about how you do a drug. Caffiene, how you're using it, is actually a drug. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a medical fact.

You do realize that wine and beer are drinks that in moderation are fine for most people's bodies?

Have you ever actually researched caffeine or how it effects the body or how the addictive portion of it works?

straightXed

10-13-2007, 03:31 PM

well i guess we have different opinions. i drink both, but im sxe. i have never, will never drink or do DRUGS.

So are you saying caffeine isn't a drug?

soda and coffee are a drink that in moderation are fine for most people's bodies. and besides- you live only once.

Yeah but a glass of wine is fine for most peoples bodies too, as is a small amount of many other drugs. It doesn't stop being a drug just because its taken moderately. And yeah you only live once, so?

and you can addicted to anything, tv,music, coffee, drugs, alcolhol, dang you can get addicted to stuff thats non-addicting.

Physical addiction to drugs is rather different, some drugs aren't addictive but it doesn't me they are somehow ok does it.

so what are we supposed to do? never do anything for fear we will become addicted.
thats living in fear, something i dont think any one here is for.

Well i don't live in fear, and i don't think anyone else here does. Somehow we all manage to avoid drugs without living in fear of becoming addicted to anything and everything. And this is the point, caffeine is a drug and logically saying you avoid drugs would mean this too right?

xmegx

10-13-2007, 04:06 PM

ok, fine. caffeine is a drug. but not in the same context crack or pot is?

and now you're advocating drinking wine and beer?

i dont get it at all.

xsecx

10-13-2007, 04:07 PM

ok, fine. caffeine is a drug. but not in the same context crack or pot is?

and now you're advocating drinking wine and beer?

i dont get it at all.

no, that's the point, we're actually advocating avoiding all of it, because they're all drugs.

straightXed

10-13-2007, 04:25 PM

ok, fine. caffeine is a drug. but not in the same context crack or pot is?

and now you're advocating drinking wine and beer?

i dont get it at all.

They are all drugs regardless of context or opinion, that has little to do with it, it won't stop being a drug. When someone indulges in caffeine usage they are in fact taking drugs, people may qualify its usage by its strength or by its socially acceptable nature but the point is other drugs like a glass of wine or a beer are just as easy to justify. I don't advocate beer, wine or coffee, like xsecx said we advocate quite the opposite. And caffeine, whilst not as potent, is a damaging drug with extended use (even usage that may seem moderate will take its toll) its such a commonly used drug that its the last thing that people think of quitting. Its acceptance in society is really evident on every post about caffeine on this board, many unaware or not prepared to accept that it is even a drug. Of course you agree that its a drug so i guess the issue for you now is that you don't see a problem with it being used recreationally, thats why i pointed out drinking wine could be seen as a non damaging occasional drug choice. I was pointing out a contrast, if coffee is ok then why is a beer or a glass of wine not ok?