Caffeine?

[sxeforlife555]

Okay, I know this has been discussed WAY TOO MANY TIMES, but hear me out. I've heard alot of controversy over this, about how caffeine is a drug. Well, here's my side of the story. Okay, so I bought some Jones soda, and some snapple antioxidant water. Well, little did I know that the fucking bottle of jones soda HAD FUCKING CAFFEINE IN IT! FUCK! Anyways, I'm pretty sure the snapple didn't have caffeine, but it said antioxidants, and the only place you can find antioxidants is either in fruit or caffeine. Well, I drank the snapple today, and my heart started beating a little faster than normal, almost as if I drank CAFFEINE? So, I stopped drinking it. So, I still call myself straight edge, even though this little incident happened. Here's what I think I'm gonna do. I've learned from this experience and I'm not gonna buy this stuff ever again. If I don't buy it/drink it I am still straight edge. What is your opinion on this?

[mouseman004]

Okay, I know this has been discussed WAY TOO MANY TIMES, but hear me out. I've heard alot of controversy over this, about how caffeine is a drug. Well, here's my side of the story. Okay, so I bought some Jones soda, and some snapple antioxidant water. Well, little did I know that the fucking bottle of jones soda HAD FUCKING CAFFEINE IN IT! FUCK! Anyways, I'm pretty sure the snapple didn't have caffeine, but it said antioxidants, and the only place you can find antioxidants is either in fruit or caffeine. Well, I drank the snapple today, and my heart started beating a little faster than normal, almost as if I drank CAFFEINE? So, I stopped drinking it. So, I still call myself straight edge, even though this little incident happened. Here's what I think I'm gonna do. I've learned from this experience and I'm not gonna buy this stuff ever again. If I don't buy it/drink it I am still straight edge. What is your opinion on this?

First, with regards to the snapple, caffiene isn't listed in the ingredients because the caffiene is found in the tea leaves (which are listed in the ingredients I think), so I am pretty sure the snapple did have caffiene.

Second, of course you can still be edge. You made a mistake, besides there are no edge police who can tell you whether or not you are still edge. If you still beleive in it and follow it then of course you are still edge. The only way you wouldn't be was if you continued to drink the jones soda or the snapple while knowing it has caffiene.

[sxeforlife555]

So, like it's not cheating if I don't buy it again? Sweet.

[straightXed]

So, like it's not cheating if I don't buy it again? Sweet.

If in doubt, read the ingredients!

[Pilaf]

You have to ask yourself if caffeine consumption is against YOUR straight edge lifestyle.

Basic original straight edge didn't even include things like veganism or fitness, the way it's come to these days, much less thoughts about caffeine or legal drugs like tylenol. Those are things people later began to attach to their own personal definitions of straight edge, which logically serve as extensions to the core values.

Today's edge seems to be a far cry from the meat eating, soda swilling DC kids who packed clubs to see Minor Threat!

But you have to look at the issue of a thing like caffeine realistically. It's not a drug in the way "drugs" spoken about in songs like Straight Edge are. Nobody ever drank a cup of tea and wrapped a car around a light pole as a result of that.

It's arguable that caffeine in some forms , such as coffee and soda, can have negative health effects in large quantities over a long period of time, but some foods containing caffeine like dark vegan chocolate and green tea may have more positive health benefits than negative ones.

So instead of worrying if caffeine consumption fits in with a straight edge lifestyle, ask yourself if it fits with YOUR goals and YOUR lifestyle.

[xsecx]

You have to ask yourself if caffeine consumption is against YOUR straight edge lifestyle.

Basic original straight edge didn't even include things like veganism or fitness, the way it's come to these days, much less thoughts about caffeine or legal drugs like tylenol. Those are things people later began to attach to their own personal definitions of straight edge, which logically serve as extensions to the core values.

Today's edge seems to be a far cry from the meat eating, soda swilling DC kids who packed clubs to see Minor Threat!

But you have to look at the issue of a thing like caffeine realistically. It's not a drug in the way "drugs" spoken about in songs like Straight Edge are. Nobody ever drank a cup of tea and wrapped a car around a light pole as a result of that.

It's arguable that caffeine in some forms , such as coffee and soda, can have negative health effects in large quantities over a long period of time, but some foods containing caffeine like dark vegan chocolate and green tea may have more positive health benefits than negative ones.

So instead of worrying if caffeine consumption fits in with a straight edge lifestyle, ask yourself if it fits with YOUR goals and YOUR lifestyle.

actually, there are plenty of people who have died under the influence of caffeine when they should have been sleeping. So I'd have to ask you, what other drugs are ok then?

[xWiglex]

actually, there are plenty of people who have died under the influence of caffeine when they should have been sleeping. So I'd have to ask you, what other drugs are ok then?


I agree with Dusty... Besides.. Straight Edge isn't about health... Like my parent can't live a day without caffeine *addicted* .... If you drink 4-6 cups of coffee evry day , try stoping.. you will suffer withdrawal simptomes ( spelled it wrong.. maybe )

[Pilaf]

actually, there are plenty of people who have died under the influence of caffeine when they should have been sleeping. So I'd have to ask you, what other drugs are ok then?

I think that if you'll examine my post closely, I didn't necessarily say that caffeine was "okay". Just that it's not comparable to something like alcohol or heroin.

And sure, yeah, people die from sleep deprivation and its side effects all the time and those people use caffeine too much. In fact I'd be willing to bet that this "energy drink" fad is going to send a lot of under thirty people to a bad end. They mix caffeine with taurine, ginseng and who knows what else. More caffeine than a body can handle in a week in a single can. That just can't end well, and won't end well, and I doubt it will surprise anybody here when kids start dropping dead.

But then on the other handit's possible to drink too much water and piss all your nutrients out too. Water is obviously not a harmful substance and is in fact a vital element of life.

I personally don't drink coffee or soda any more because I hate the things they did to my body. I only drink decaffeinated green tea and somehow I manage to sleep with myself at night, because from my perspective that just doesn't put me in the same category as a stoner. I just don't consider it a drug and I don't consider a cup of tea to be compromising any of the values that led me to initially take on the mantle of sXe as a kid. None of the kids who were destroying their lives and pissing me off in middle and high school were doing any of the shit they were doing under the influence of Earl Gray but more than a few knew old Jim Beam and Jack Daniels.

As far as asking me "what other drugs are okay", well let's see...I suppose if a person were dying of cancer or recovering from surgery, it would be logical to take pain killers or other medicines to help in their recovery, because the trauma from feeling all the additional pain would be more harmful to the health than the substances themselves.

As for any recreational mind altering substances, I'd naturally not consider them compatible with the straight edge mindset or ethos.

[xsecx]

I personally don't drink coffee or soda any more because I hate the things they did to my body. I only drink decaffeinated green tea and somehow I manage to sleep with myself at night, because from my perspective that just doesn't put me in the same category as a stoner. I just don't consider it a drug and I don't consider a cup of tea to be compromising any of the values that led me to initially take on the mantle of sXe as a kid. None of the kids who were destroying their lives and pissing me off in middle and high school were doing any of the shit they were doing under the influence of Earl Gray but more than a few knew old Jim Beam and Jack Daniels.


Whether you consider it a drug or not isn't really relevant, because it is a drug. The only reason you don't is because of the socialization of caffeine use, not because of any other real reason. No one is destroying their lives drinking a beer at night. No one is destroying their lives smoking a joint every once in a while. Why are those substances different from caffeine other than how they're viewed and treated by society?



As for any recreational mind altering substances, I'd naturally not consider them compatible with the straight edge mindset or ethos.
Caffeine is a recreational mind altering substance, so how are you going to try and reconcile this inconsistency?

[Pilaf]

Whether you consider it a drug or not isn't really relevant, because it is a drug. The only reason you don't is because of the socialization of caffeine use, not because of any other real reason. No one is destroying their lives drinking a beer at night. No one is destroying their lives smoking a joint every once in a while. Why are those substances different from caffeine other than how they're viewed and treated by society

They're not essentially different in that they're all drugs. The difference lies in the range and scope of their effects on the human body. And not all caffeine is created equal, by the way. It's been documented that the caffeine in coffee is released into the bloodstream all at once, like BAM as soon as you drink it, whereas the caffeine in tea is trickled in a little bit at the time over several hours, making the effects on the pulse less severe.

Not defending it or anything, just saying not all caffeine is the same, and caffeine is not the same as methamphetamine or alcohol in its exact effects but yes it's a drug.



Caffeine is a recreational mind altering substance, so how are you going to try and reconcile this inconsistency?

Well as I said, I don't drink caffeine so there's really nothing for me to reconcile for myself. I can defend others who do because original straight edge was more about not participating in self destructive behavior than being necessarily "drug free" or "pure."

I mean Brian Baker had a Coca Cola tattoo. That shows the paradigm shift in attitude over the past 28 years or so.

I personally think that if a person is wise enough to decide to abstain from alcohol and other destructive drugs there will come a time in that kid's life where he examines and eliminates things like coffee and soda as well and hopefully eventually goes tee total from caffeine, however I wouldn't try to add caffeine abstinance as actually literally being against straight edge because that's really going out on a limb and is a bit of revisionist history in the context of hundreds of kids hyped up on soda going to Minor Threat and SSD shows in the eighties. I'm absolutely sure all of those people were honest to goodness straight edge the way we are..it's just they hadn't come around to examining that aspect of their lifestyle/diet yet.

It just seems to me like there's too many things being added on to straight edge, in the context of "if you do this you're not edge." It's like veganism...I think veganism is a swell idea and I recommend it to anyone, and think it's a logical extension of the values of straight edge but I would never say "you have to abstain from animal products to be edge". In much the same vein, I think the caffeine step is just a bit up from base line straight edge. It's easily attached to the ethos but I wouldn't go so far as to say a kid drinking a pepsi at a show is the same as a guy getting drunk at a show, for example. He's doing something shitty to his body for sure of course and it's logical for an edge kid to abstain from that but...

I dunno. You make some very strong points but I think they're debatable.

[xsecx]

They're not essentially different in that they're all drugs. The difference lies in the range and scope of their effects on the human body. And not all caffeine is created equal, by the way. It's been documented that the caffeine in coffee is released into the bloodstream all at once, like BAM as soon as you drink it, whereas the caffeine in tea is trickled in a little bit at the time over several hours, making the effects on the pulse less severe.

Not defending it or anything, just saying not all caffeine is the same, and caffeine is not the same as methamphetamine or alcohol in its exact effects but yes it's a drug.


You didn't really answer why you think they're different though?





Well as I said, I don't drink caffeine so there's really nothing for me to reconcile for myself. I can defend others who do because original straight edge was more about not participating in self destructive behavior than being necessarily "drug free" or "pure."


I mean Brian Baker had a Coca Cola tattoo. That shows the paradigm shift in attitude over the past 28 years or so.


Original straight edge also had no issue with the moderate drinking of alcohol either. What was originally really has no baring on whether or not the idea makes sense.



I personally think that if a person is wise enough to decide to abstain from alcohol and other destructive drugs there will come a time in that kid's life where he examines and eliminates things like coffee and soda as well and hopefully eventually goes tee total from caffeine, however I wouldn't try to add caffeine abstinance as actually literally being against straight edge because that's really going out on a limb and is a bit of revisionist history in the context of hundreds of kids hyped up on soda going to Minor Threat and SSD shows in the eighties. I'm absolutely sure all of those people were honest to goodness straight edge the way we are..it's just they hadn't come around to examining that aspect of their lifestyle/diet yet.


Why is it going out on limb? Why is moderate alcohol drinking wrong, but moderate caffeine isn't? How can you reconcile that other than the social acceptance of the drug, which really is at the heart of what abstinence is about.



It just seems to me like there's too many things being added on to straight edge, in the context of "if you do this you're not edge." It's like veganism...I think veganism is a swell idea and I recommend it to anyone, and think it's a logical extension of the values of straight edge but I would never say "you have to abstain from animal products to be edge". In much the same vein, I think the caffeine step is just a bit up from base line straight edge. It's easily attached to the ethos but I wouldn't go so far as to say a kid drinking a pepsi at a show is the same as a guy getting drunk at a show, for example. He's doing something shitty to his body for sure of course and it's logical for an edge kid to abstain from that but...


No it really isn't though. Straight edge is against recreational drug use, and caffeine is a drug that's being used recreationally. How is that adding anything other than consistency in message?



I dunno. You make some very strong points but I think they're debatable.
How is it debatable when your argument appears to be based on history, which is really irrelevant?

[Pilaf]

Okay. Fair points. Like I said, I don't really drink caffeine. I gave it up several times and this time I have stayed off it for a very long time and am more committed than ever to sXe. I do drink the decaffeinated tea though, for the taste and the supposed health benefits.

What's your opinion on that? It had caffeine naturally but it's virtually all removed. I'm probably not gonna stop drinking it because it has literally no effect one way or the other on my brain, but I understand it's not much different from drinking a "non alcoholic beer" (except green tea has been shown to have tangible health benefits whereas the beer for those people is a taste thing or a social thing I guess.)

[xsecx]

Okay. Fair points. Like I said, I don't really drink caffeine. I gave it up several times and this time I have stayed off it for a very long time and am more committed than ever to sXe. I do drink the decaffeinated tea though, for the taste and the supposed health benefits.

What's your opinion on that? It had caffeine naturally but it's virtually all removed. I'm probably not gonna stop drinking it because it has literally no effect one way or the other on my brain, but I understand it's not much different from drinking a "non alcoholic beer" (except green tea has been shown to have tangible health benefits whereas the beer for those people is a taste thing or a social thing I guess.)


The amount of caffeine in decaffeinated beverages and most chocolate is negligible and not in an amount that can effect the human body, so I view the same way that I view bread, soy sauce and juices which all contain small amounts of alcohol that can't effect a person.