Northern Ireland... Not this shit again...

[Sociocidal]

Two solders murdered in Northern Ireland recently as I'm sure a lot of you know...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_re_eu/eu_northern_ireland is the yahoo report by an Associated Press Writer.

What good could this possibly do? Why this senseless violence? Had we not gotten past such insanity?
Not sure exactly what I'm expecting with this thread, but id love to hear some opinions on this matter from either British citizens without them begin filtered by the press, or from people from other nations looking in on all of this..

[D1988]

There was also a policeman shot and murdered last night.

It's not looking good at all.....

[xsecx]

do the IRA really have that strong of a support base at this point?

[D1988]

do the IRA really have that strong of a support base at this point?

I really have no idea sorry.

[Segadoway]

this bullshit really pisses me off, fucking idiots the lot of them.

[Sociocidal]

do the IRA really have that strong of a support base at this point?

In the bulk of society they don't, a lot of people have realized that they are just murdering people at this point, but there are still a small group of tools who think there still fighting the good fight like in 1916.

The modern IRA are nothing but murderers and gangsters. Drug running, prostitution, hustling shops for protection money.. They are in no way fighting for the people. most of them cant speak a word of Irish or name the hunger strikers..

[XTrueColorsX]

In the bulk of society they don't, a lot of people have realized that they are just murdering people at this point, but there are still a small group of tools who think there still fighting the good fight like in 1916.

The modern IRA are nothing but murderers and gangsters. Drug running, prostitution, hustling shops for protection money.. They are in no way fighting for the people. most of them cant speak a word of Irish or name the hunger strikers..

In some newspapers there is a term "Real IRA" or "RIRA"... Is it the hard core of the IRA or what?

[Sociocidal]

In some newspapers there is a term "Real IRA" or "RIRA"... Is it the hard core of the IRA or what?


The Real IRA (RIRA) was formed in 1997 following a split in the Provisional Irish Republican Army. It is an illegal organisation in the Republic of Ireland and designated as a terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom and the United States.

The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA), is an Irish republican paramilitary organisation that considers itself a direct continuation of the Irish Republican Army (the army of the Irish Republic — 1919–1921) that fought in the Irish War of Independence. Like other organisations calling themselves the IRA (see List of IRAs), the Provisionals' constitution establishes them as Óglaigh na hÉireann ("The Irish Volunteers") in the Irish language, which is also the official title of the Irish Defence Forces. The Provisional Irish Republican Army is sometimes referred to as the PIRA, the Provos, or by some of its supporters as the Army or the 'RA.

The Irish Republican Army (IRA) (Irish: Óglaigh na hÉireann) was an Irish republican revolutionary military organisation descended from the Irish Volunteers, established 25 November 1913 and who in April 1916 staged the Easter Rising. The Irish Volunteers were recognised in 1919 by Dáil Éireann (its elected assembly) as the legitimate army of the unilaterally declared Irish Republic, the Irish state proclaimed at Easter in 1916 and reaffirmed by the Dáil in January 1919. Thereafter, the IRA waged a guerrilla campaign against British rule in Ireland in the Irish War of Independence from 1919–1921.

The original IRA split in 1922. After the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921, members of the IRA who supported the Treaty formed the nucleus of the National Army founded by IRA leader Michael Collins. However, a high proportion of the IRA was opposed to the treaty. The anti-Treaty IRA fought a civil war with their former comrades in 1922–23, with the intention of creating a fully independent all Ireland republic. Having lost the civil war, this group remained in existence, with the intention of overthrowing both the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland and re-establishing the Irish Republic declared in 1919.

[chadfitzy]

lets look on the brite side, a lot of great songs came outa the IRA?!?!

[xGriffox]

i am sympathetic towards the IRA and their aims though it seems their goal is a lost cause at this point. Looks like they are attacking legitimate targets (yes the army and police are legitimate targets) this time around thus far, at least as opposed to the bombings of "military pubs" that was popular in the 70s.

[xsecx]

i am sympathetic towards the IRA and their aims though it seems their goal is a lost cause at this point. Looks like they are attacking legitimate targets (yes the army and police are legitimate targets) this time around thus far, at least as opposed to the bombings of "military pubs" that was popular in the 70s.

why are you sympathetic towards them and how are they attacking legitimate targets when they're not representing or policed or supported by any kind of a majority of people?

[xGriffox]

why are you sympathetic towards them and how are they attacking legitimate targets when they're not representing or policed or supported by any kind of a majority of people?

i am sympathetic towards them because a great deal of my family died and was forced to leave Ireland due to the imperialism of Britain and their oppression of the Irish peoples. The IRA in all its incarnations at its core was directly opposed to the imperialism and continued occupation of Ireland as a whole and then as time went on the occupation of Northern Ireland. I am sympathetic to an organization that at its core sought the liberation of their people and the reclamation of their country. Do i disagree with many of the actions they carried out? yes. I think they could have been much smarter about what and who they decided to blow up, but the fact remains i still am sympathetic towards their cause.

[xsecx]

i am sympathetic towards them because a great deal of my family died and was forced to leave Ireland due to the imperialism of Britain and their oppression of the Irish peoples. The IRA in all its incarnations at its core was directly opposed to the imperialism and continued occupation of Ireland as a whole and then as time went on the occupation of Northern Ireland. I am sympathetic to an organization that at its core sought the liberation of their people and the reclamation of their country. Do i disagree with many of the actions they carried out? yes. I think they could have been much smarter about what and who they decided to blow up, but the fact remains i still am sympathetic towards their cause.

the actions that you're talking about have no real baring on what's going on today though. How many generations removed are you from Ireland? How many direct ties do you have to it now? At this point, the majority of the people in northern ireland want to be part of the UK, so how exactly are they fighting for the liberation of a people who don't want to be "liberated"? At what point do you recognize the choice of the majority and ostracize a minority terrorist organization for what it is?

[xGriffox]

the actions that you're talking about have no real baring on what's going on today though. How many generations removed are you from Ireland? How many direct ties do you have to it now? At this point, the majority of the people in northern ireland want to be part of the UK, so how exactly are they fighting for the liberation of a people who don't want to be "liberated"? At what point do you recognize the choice of the majority and ostracize a minority terrorist organization for what it is?

i am two generations removed, but that still does not change what has happened in the past to my family and the Irish people.

As stated before, i feel at this point their aim is a lost cause due to a variety of factors, i was simply addressing the points that they were not targeting civilians this time around (that is if they are even linked with any of the IRAs of the past). This current manifestation seems to be a last desperate attempt at clinging to the old dream of a united Ireland which is essentially an impossibility at this point in time. I remain sympathetic to the aims of the IRA regardless and will continue to do so despite whatever you respond.

[xsecx]

i am two generations removed, but that still does not change what has happened in the past to the Irish people.


it doesn't, but it does mean that it isn't really relevant since the people who did it are all probably dead at this point and that your views on it aren't really based on what's happening today or the last what, 50+ years?



As stated before, i feel at this point their aim is a lost cause due to a variety of factors, i was simply addressing the points that they were not targeting civilians this time around (that is if they are even linked with any of the IRAs of the past). This current manifestation seems to be a last desperate attempt at clinging to the old dream of a united Ireland which is essentially an impossibility at this point in time. I remain sympathetic to the aims of the IRA regardless and will continue to do so despite whatever you respond.

Yet, you believe their goal is a good one, and that their methods are legitimate. So you don't believe in sovereignty and that any group should be able to kill whomever they want to, as long as that person is wearing a uniform and is armed, right? I mean, why reevaluate your beliefs, when you read about how the majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland don't really care about unification and that there isn't really a push for it via any legitimate representative group. Why rethink the situation when you realize that they aren't really fighting the good fight, but are in fact just a bunch of terrorists who refuse to accept the will of the people and the reality of the situation.

[xGriffox]

it doesn't, but it does mean that it isn't really relevant since the people who did it are all probably dead at this point and that your views on it aren't really based on what's happening today or the last what, 50+ years?
it goes up until more recently. throughout the 70s the British government cracked down on the civil rights of the Irish people, arresting and holding them under false charges along with imposing essential marshal law in areas of Northern Ireland at numerous different times. This is a violation of their sovereignty and their rights as citizens if they were to really be subjects under the crown, not second class citizens ( which they essentially were up until just around 30 years ago).




Yet, you believe their goal is a good one, and that their methods are legitimate. So you don't believe in sovereignty and that any group should be able to kill whomever they want to, as long as that person is wearing a uniform and is armed, right? I mean, why reevaluate your beliefs, when you read about how the majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland don't really care about unification and that there isn't really a push for it via any legitimate representative group. Why rethink the situation when you realize that they aren't really fighting the good fight, but are in fact just a bunch of terrorists who refuse to accept the will of the people and the reality of the situation.

i support their goal because Britain has no right to have ever occupied the Irish isle and still doesn't to this day. The damage they have done is irreparable and the least that could be done is the relinquishment of a small piece of land from under their control. I told you already (multiple times) that i don't support this current manifestation of the "IRA" (if they have any relation at all), but rather, i am sympathetic towards the aim that the IRA has historically held.

[xsecx]

it goes up until more recently. throughout the 70s the British government cracked down on the civil rights of the Irish people, arresting and holding them under false charges along with imposing essential marshal law in areas of Northern Ireland at numerous different times. This is a violation of their sovereignty and their rights as citizens if they were to really be subjects under the crown, not second class citizens ( which they essentially were up until just around 30 years ago).


Yes, but by that time your family and any ties to what had been going on were long gone. I find it interesting that you somehow feel more entitled to hold some kind of grudge that you yourself have no direct link to, than the people who's family didn't flee. I find the entire mindset of the "american irish" completely baffling. You're claiming a heritage that you are completely removed from and has no baring on your life or culture whatsoever.





i support their goal because Britain has no right to have ever occupied the Irish isle and still doesn't to this day. The damage they have done is irreparable and the least that could be done is the relinquishment of a small piece of land from under their control. I told you already (multiple times) that i don't support this current manifestation of the "IRA" (if they have any relation at all), but rather, i am sympathetic towards the aim that the IRA has historically held.

I like how you keep ignoring one simple statement that I keep making and it's "I mean, why reevaluate your beliefs, when you read about how the majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland don't really care about unification and that there isn't really a push for it via any legitimate representative group. Why rethink the situation when you realize that they aren't really fighting the good fight, but are in fact just a bunch of terrorists who refuse to accept the will of the people and the reality of the situation." The majority of people that live there don't want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland isn't and hasn't for a long time tried to get the land back. You say you don't support them, but you're sympathetic, yet you use language like legitimate targets which would in fact show support for their actions, or at least granting them legitimacy in their choice of targets

[xGriffox]

it's not even worth bringing up an opinion if it differs from yours because it gets no respect. I know that you will respond "i would respect it if you could make a cohesive argument in favor of it, which you can't". I could argue this, but honestly it's not worth it because no matter what i say you will never concede and accept that someone has a difference of opinion from yourself.

[xsecx]

it's not even worth bringing up an opinion if it differs from yours because it gets no respect. I know that you will respond "i would respect it if you could make a cohesive argument in favor of it, which you can't". I could argue this, but honestly it's not worth it because no matter what i say you will never concede and accept that someone has a difference of opinion from yourself.

That's not true at all. If your opinion is based on something that's factual and makes sense, then I'll simply disagree. You tend to make arguments that are based on emotions and feelings rather than looking at them objectively and modifying your believes based on those observations. You've got your mind made up about the IRA and unification and even though you know it's something that most people don't want on either side of the border, you still respect the idea. That makes no sense to me, since you're an outsider but somehow think you know better than the people who are directly affected. Unless you want to tell me that I'm wrong, and that the majority of people do. Then the discussion can go another way, if you can't then it won't.

[Sociocidal]

Guys I am Irish, one born up north in fact, and the IRA do not represent anti imperialism, nor do they represent the people as a whole. They are a minority within a minority. There are no legitimate targets. None. Every human being has the right to life. Everyone. What can come of war but more war?

I don't mean to be insulting to xGriffox, but your not here, so you cant possibly understand, things have changed so much since the 90's let alone the 70's.

When a group like the IRA kill a British solider it isn't looked on as killing a solider its looked on by the loyalist community as the killing of one of there community, the repercussions to which are generally the murder of separatists, however what defines a separatists tends to be there religious affiliation rather than political. The old impression of Protestants are Loyalist, Catholics are Separatist still holds ground up north.

[Just-a-fool]

things have changed so much since the 90's let alone the 70's.


The old impression of Protestants are Loyalist, Catholics are Separatist still holds ground up north.


Kinda talks against itself... just something i noticed.
My opinion about the northern ireland does follow your mostly though ;)

[Sociocidal]

Kinda talks against itself... just something i noticed.
My opinion about the northern ireland does follow your mostly though ;)

O.k to be honest i felt that when i was writing it :p But as contradictory as it is it is true.. Where there has been significant change the old stereotypes still hold ground. unfortunately