What do u think about anarchism?? to my mind, its a very interesting political philosophy
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What do u think about anarchism?? to my mind, its a very interesting political philosophy
Could never happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake
Anarchism = nice idea in the abstract, in reality, it would just degenerate into a dog eat dog world, because there would always be those who don't respect others' freedom.
maybe its impossible
but i prefer anarchism more than politic of dictatorship
we can be out for it. for the new word. where everybody respect each other/
Its easy to say you prefer it without living in the reality of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake
for communism, you need the perfect leader. for anarchism, you need perfect people.
One of my friends always goes on about anarchism, that it couldnt really exhist. Something about how once you sat your an anarchist you dont live by any rules but your living by the rule of NOT having rules so your not an anarchist anymore.
well thats what i picked up from what he was rambling!
the thought of anarchy is an interesting theory, but i dont think it would work
because it currently isn't a dog eat dog world and freedoms are 100% respected by governments the world over? get real, times are desperate in the system we have, why not look to a better alternative?Quote:
Originally Posted by XAdrenalineX
I think it should be the goal of humanity over a long period of time... we cant possibly have anarchism in the worlds current state. One misconception of anarchism is that its a world without rules, but rather its a system of society that functions without central government, rather by a system of voluntary cooperation. The key problem with this is the idea that all society will act for the greater good. Where as the bulk of humanity does indeed act with social conscience, taking the needs and rights of other human beings into consideration, there is a strong element of selfishness. Selfishness leads to crime and hardship for others. Where as a form of council will need to be developed to deal with crime, its not a huge leap before this becomes elected government. Once this leap is made, you have democracy. Not anarchism. The only remaining feature is economy. A barter system is unreliable, and a capitalist system leads to inequality. Even a socialist system left without a level of free market leads to inequality.
Should sum this up... Ehm... yeah it looks good on paper but cant happen anytime soon... We till need to evolve significantly as a species. Other than technology there hasnt really been a considerable amount of change in our species since or development of fire.... so yeah
I'm sorry but that is such a load of crap. We have governments, we have authority, and times are not desperate. Just because you don't like the way things are, doesn't mean times are desperate.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociocidal
I find that really interesting, I honestly admit that i didnt know that much about anarchism and what it envolves. I was like many others under the influence it was about the no rules thing :) I totally understand how, as human beings the way we are now it wouldnt work.
when you spoke of how the selfishment of others would lead to crime etc, it got me thinking about how quick people start looting and desroying things as soon as the opportunuty arrises. Makes me kind of sad in a way :/ ah well
says the person of privilege.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
please go to talk to someone who has no job, is looking at losing their home, or doesn't know how they will pay for their family's next meal and tell them "times aren't desperate". After that maybe you can stop being so self absorbed in thinking that everyone enjoys the same level of comfort and privilege as you do.
people loot and rob in a capitalistic society in order to further their own standing in said society by accumulating more capital from the fencing of said stolen good. What good would stealing a stereo be if you then couldn't sell it for money? And why would you steal a stereo from someone who was a member of your community who you knew personally and relied upon for your own survival?Quote:
Originally Posted by x.Xmiss_SmogX.x
Read this and i think some questions will be answered for you when it comes to why many advocate for anarchism and total self-"governance" and why it makes perfect sense to them.
Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist...dcontents.html
But this is you bringing things down to an individuals level.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
When you said times were desperate it made it look like you were talking about it on a much larger scale than times being desperate for individuals and their lives. I think this is what Mouseman was addressing, you should have maybe worded it better in the first place?
and what is beyond the desperation in the personal lives of people if that same case of desperation is multiplied at least a billion times over?Quote:
Originally Posted by D1988
times ARE desperate for most people in the world and most people do not enjoy the level of privilege and comfort of the middle to upper class of the first world. Times are desperate in terms of ecological devastation and the unchecked power with which capitalism allows these companies to destroy ecosystems and homes to both animals and the remaining non-civilized indigenous peoples. Times ARE desperate and to deny that is to be blind to anything beyond the privileged, first world, and oftentimes "white" way of looking at things.
so, uh, when are you going to give it all up?Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
You have described a scenario close to one i grew up in and i certainly would never champion the idea of anarchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
first of all, need i really give up anything to make my points relevant or to work towards building non-hierarchical community? and second, you don't know me nor do you know where i stand economically, so your criticism here is basically a stab in the dark attempting to somehow make my points irrelevant rather than actually addressing the issues i brought up.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
well, if you find a problem with how things are, living and adding to that system, does kind of make your statements worthless. I always love the "you don't know me" response. I don't need to. You're living in new york, are white and male, and want to complain about privilege, but as far as I can tell, you don't really seem to have any plans to give that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
but, if you want to talk about your points, we can talk about low the unemployment rate is now in comparison to the past. how low infant mortality rates are now. How middle classes are existing in places like china and india where there never were before. So yeah, basically your points are bullshit, but it's more fun to ask you when you're going to give up your white privilege and comfort since it bothers you so much.
Person of privilege? Who the fuck do you think you are? You don't know me or how I live my life. I'm not the one sitting on the internet in probably my parents house spouting absolute bullshit about anarchism. You want to talk about freedom being infringed upon? Move to China, or Cuba, or an African dictatorship. You have no idea how good you have it in the United States, so don't sit on your soap box pretending like you understand a tough life.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
And I meant times weren't desperate with governments and authority, which is the basis or an anarchist ideology. Tell me, how would anarchy help the current economic crisis. Tell me how a world with no form of authority would help these people support their families.
Funny, you can make judgements about me living a life of privilege without knowing my economic situation, but its not okay for somebody else to make the same assumption about you?Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
duh anarchists don't have to make sense or be consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
Anarchy.. the worst thing that could happen.
But Perfect Democracy ( which once happened in Ancient Greece in Athens if my memory serves my right ) is a great alternative.
Evryghting is decided by everyone and there are only people that are in charge of the law beeing brought to life. And you could easily be one of them.
That would be great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
Hey thanks for that i really enjoyed reading it :)
once again, and i know you love to hear this, you really don't know me and really don't know what i do or what i am involved with.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I am beginning to help organize community food programs WITH (not for) community leaders (almost all of which who are non-white) throughout the new york city area in an attempt to ease the pains of hunger in poor and often non-white communities, and in doing this and i am at least, in a very slight way, working towards dismantling white privilege, something i want NO part of and would give up in a second if doing so was possible.
I consider myself a staunch feminist, put in 15+ hours a week as a volunteer at a radical/activist/feminist/queer space, and am working towards the dismantlement of the gender binary system within myself and within the people i come into contact with thus attempting to combat male privilege.
I put in a lot of my time and effort towards at least trying to dismantle a system of privilege that has been developed independent of myself for at least a millennium, and in some ways you are right, i could be doing more (and i hope to as time goes on). Perhaps my efforts are futile, but i know i couldn't sleep with myself at night if i weren't at least attempting to dismantle some of the fucked up thing that occur in our culture.
what do you do to try and change things you strongly disagree with? (and i mean this as a serious question, not as a mocking statement)
First, the unemployment figures are unreliable since they are based off of those who are taking unemployment insurance, not the true number of those who lack a job and are gaining no income. Many of those who are without work have either run out of said insurance or never received it to begin with (example being migrant workers within the United States).Quote:
but, if you want to talk about your points, we can talk about low the unemployment rate is now in comparison to the past. how low infant mortality rates are now. How middle classes are existing in places like china and india where there never were before. So yeah, basically your points are bullshit, but it's more fun to ask you when you're going to give up your white privilege and comfort since it bothers you so much.
Secondly, middle classes come at the expense of who again? oh yeah, the working class. There's a reason why there is historically so much flak directed toward the bourgeois, and it is primarily because they are the "vanguard of capitalism". They stand in a position of privilege and they benefit from a system which excludes the lower class in its spoils. As China and India gain a larger middle class the conditions seem to be getting worse and worse for the lower classes. You need only look to the example of South Korea to see that while the middle class certainly holds decent footing, the lower class has had their homes demolished and even been killed trying to defend them for the building of a shopping mall (a middle class institution if there ever was one). Source: http://indymedia.cast.or.kr/drupal/?q=ko/node/6 (which is directly sourced from within South Korea so don't try to shrug it off as unreliable.)
You only serve to prove my point. We have it (comparably) good so why shouldn't we put our efforts towards making everyone have it great?Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
Times are not desperate with government and authority for you maybe; which is once again due to privilege. Go to Oakland and speak to people whose family has been killed by police within the past few months or go to a prison where an environmental rights activist is serving 25 years for destruction of property and tell them that there are no problems with the government or authority. Times aren't desperate for you personally but to fail to acknowledge the hardships that people are going through every day simply because it doesn't affect you is the exact problem with the institution of privilege and its "out of sight, out of mind" mentality.Quote:
And I meant times weren't desperate with governments and authority, which is the basis or an anarchist ideology.
By replacing capital with community.Quote:
Tell me, how would anarchy help the current economic crisis. Tell me how a world with no form of authority would help these people support their families.
I guess you are right, that is unfair of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
So how are you working, or at least trying, to make the world a better place so that no one ever has to complain about the issue of privilege again?
browse that site for more writings from a whole lot of different anarchist thinkers, it's very thorough and collects a lot of almost-impossible-to-find works.Quote:
Originally Posted by x.Xmiss_SmogX.x
and all of this is possible because you're not having to work 100 hours a week to have a place to live or food to eat. You're doing this all from the comfort of your own existence, so if this culture and privilege really bothers you, then when do you plan on discarding all of it and moving somewhere where if it didn't matter it would at least be significantly reduced? I'm sure you're planning on going off to college in the US and not in a foreign country. If so, then why wouldn't you go to school in place where your privilege wouldn't matter? I honestly do think everything you're doing is awesome and helping, however I think your mindset about the culture is completely fucked up and is a direct result of the fact that your life isn't that bad and you seem to be completely unwilling to discard your comforts. you want to take full advantage of your privilege while talking about how evil it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
I actually give a fair amount of money to charities and my job has a direct effect on making the work a better and a safer place.
sure, but it's also the only way to really track it. It still doesn't take away from the fact there are more and better paying jobs now globally than there were in the past.Quote:
First, the unemployment figures are unreliable since they are based off of those who are taking unemployment insurance, not the true number of those who lack a job and are gaining no income. Many of those who are without work have either run out of said insurance or never received it to begin with (example being migrant workers within the United States).
I guess it's lost on you that the larger the middle class gets, the smaller the the lower class gets. The lower class will always get shit on, regardless of the socio/economic model. Are you going to try and argue that lower class life is better in north korea than it is in south korea?Quote:
Secondly, middle classes come at the expense of who again? oh yeah, the working class. There's a reason why there is historically so much flak directed toward the bourgeois, and it is primarily because they are the "vanguard of capitalism". They stand in a position of privilege and they benefit from a system which excludes the lower class in its spoils. As China and India gain a larger middle class the conditions seem to be getting worse and worse for the lower classes. You need only look to the example of South Korea to see that while the middle class certainly holds decent footing, the lower class has had their homes demolished and even been killed trying to defend them for the building of a shopping mall (a middle class institution if there ever was one). Source: http://indymedia.cast.or.kr/drupal/?q=ko/node/6 (which is directly sourced from within South Korea so don't try to shrug it off as unreliable.)
Or you could go and talk to the people who grew up in oakland and went to school, got good paying jobs and left the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
are you seriously trying to argue that people blowing shit up isn't wrong?
What does that have to do with anarchism?Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
So you found a couple of extremely specific cases of an abuse of authority, but that calls for an abolition of authority all together? I am not suggesting there isn't abuse of authority in the world, but you are talking about creating a world in which people are free to do what they want when they want. What about situations with authoritative figures who do good. Look at Nelson Mandela ending apartheid. Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets? You can find negative examples of anything to mould to any argument, so forgive me for my heart strings not being tugged by the couple of examples that you provided.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
Wow, what a wonderful world you live in inside your head. Are there rainbows and flowers and houses made of candy too?Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
absolutely everything. The entire purpose of anarchism is to make things better for humanity as a whole; to truly liberate everyone and to allow for truly fulfilling lives free from coercion in any form.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
they are not extremely specific cases but rather specific examples drawn from the huge pool of abuses of authority and law that occur every single day.Quote:
So you found a couple of extremely specific cases of an abuse of authority, but that calls for an abolition of authority all together?
yes, i am. Isn't this not the goal of every human? To have the freedom to do what they wish with their time and to make their lives fulfilling?Quote:
I am not suggesting there isn't abuse of authority in the world, but you are talking about creating a world in which people are free to do what they want when they want.
Nelson Mandela was imprisoned under the law for his actions in ending apartheid and was held in prison for well over a decade. I would hardly say at that point in time that he held a "position" at all, let alone a position of authority, other than being a popular voice of the oppressed.Quote:
What about situations with authoritative figures who do good. Look at Nelson Mandela ending apartheid.
you need only look to history and headlines to see the abuses perpetuated by power over and over again. On the occasion that communities finally do decide to protect themselves and to manage their own internal affairs (for example, the Black Panthers) they are targeted by the system of authority as "dangerous" and "revolutionary", sought after by the police, and slowly killed off either in jail cells or by bullets in the street.Quote:
Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets? You can find negative examples of anything to mould to any argument, so forgive me for my heart strings not being tugged by the couple of examples that you provided.
your mockery of that statement only shows how little you understand about any theories pertaining to social organization, even within moderate groups. One doesn't need a system of capital, insurance, etc. if a solid community is available to fall back on and to provide for one another.Quote:
Wow, what a wonderful world you live in inside your head. Are there rainbows and flowers and houses made of candy too?
funny, because one of my better friends is from Oakland, grew up horribly poor, and tells me of how essentially everyone who is non-white and lower class in Oakland fears for their lives from abuses of the police. He made it out of Oakland and is incredibly well educated (by his own doing, not by the "education" systems there) and he still recognizes the injustices that have occurred and continue to occur there in terms of police harassment, abuse, and even killing. Simply because he made it out does not mean that the hardships of life there stop existing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Are you seriously trying to argue that setting fire to a car that had no one inside of it, was later restored, and then sold, warrants a 25 year prison sentence?Quote:
are you seriously trying to argue that people blowing shit up isn't wrong?
we are not discussing the morals of property destruction here, but rather abuses of authority.
How is one well educated by their own doing and not the education system? Your comments are about abuses for authority and why anarchy is necessary, but somehow people are able to learn, grow and eventually leave that area. Or, it could be that the people recognize the problems and are actively working to change things. I also like how you pick and choose local responsibility. You talk about the black panthers, but you blame the government and cops for why oakland is a shithole.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
If you're going to speak about specifics rather than generalities, you might want to reference what it is you're talking about rather than assuming everyone will know the specifics of what you're talking about.Quote:
Are you seriously trying to argue that setting fire to a car that had no one inside of it, was later restored, and then sold, warrants a 25 year prison sentence?
we are not discussing the morals of property destruction here, but rather abuses of authority.
you completely ignored his point because you know full well you can't counter it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
bring up some points of your own then and let's make this a right-proper debate. Why can't anarchy work and why is government the ideal system of human management?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I already have but like usual you've ignored those posts, but awesome way to ignore his point again and try and shift attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
anarchy cannot work because humans are not and will never be equal. greed will always exist and there will always need to be laws to keep parts of humanity in place and to punish those that don't. It has never work and there's really no reason to believe that it will ever work.
he dropped out of high school and is one of the most eloquent and incredibly intelligent individuals i have met. He educated himself through reading and interactions with others rather than through the traditional track of public education.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
your point here is muddled here, but let me try to respond regardless.Quote:
Your comments are about abuses for authority and why anarchy is necessary, but somehow people are able to learn, grow and eventually leave that area. Or, it could be that the people recognize the problems and are actively working to change things.
Certainly people are able to grow and learn even in the most repressive of environments (see the Red Army Faction for example), but that does not mean that the repressive environment should continue to exist.
I was merely stating that police repression is a very real problem in that specific community. Certainly there are other issues (drug dealing, drug homicides, gang shootings etc.) and these issues need to be addressed as well, but i think they should be addressed by the community and not by the state.Quote:
I also like how you pick and choose local responsibility. You talk about the black panthers, but you blame the government and cops for why oakland is a shithole.
does the destruction of property in which no living being is harmed ever warrant a 25 year sentence?Quote:
If you're going to speak about specifics rather than generalities, you might want to reference what it is you're talking about rather than assuming everyone will know the specifics of what you're talking about.
Then I'd have to question what he's actually educated in and what's he's actually qualified to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by xGriffox
but they're not able to leave. in your example people are stuck in that system and in your example it's limited to a given geographic location.Quote:
your point here is muddled here, but let me try to respond regardless.
Certainly people are able to grow and learn even in the most repressive of environments (see the Red Army Faction for example), but that does not mean that the repressive environment should continue to exist.
and yet, it isn't. There's nothing stopping the community from doing so, and some are, but if you take a look I'm sure you'd find government funding and assistance all over those areas. I'd like some sucessful examples of where communities have tackled problems like you listed without any government assistance.Quote:
I was merely stating that police repression is a very real problem in that specific community. Certainly there are other issues (drug dealing, drug homicides, gang shootings etc.) and these issues need to be addressed as well, but i think they should be addressed by the community and not by the state.
depends on the circumstances, depends on if someone has prior convictions, and it depends on what else the person is involved in. you can't talk about this shit in a vacuum.Quote:
does the destruction of property in which no living being is harmed ever warrant a 25 year sentence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
The police (and as a further extension, the army) serve the purpose of being the arm of the state and the way in which its laws are enforced in the physical plane. Certainly the police have saved people when it has synced up within the law but in the same manner they have repressed them when the law and the state has allowed it. Look to segregation, slavery, Bloody Sunday, the movement against Apartheid, the Angola 3, the entire anti-war movement, the Red Scare, the Green Scare, the January Uprising in Poland, and so many more than come to mind right now.Quote:
Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets?.
Every case of state repression has not been carried out by the ruler him or herself, but rather by the generals, armies, and police forces under his/her command. You have called me out for ignoring the good that police do for people and i continue to call you out for every case of state repression that could have never occurred without such a police force.
"There is a psychological deficiency in policing others."
see: The Paris Commune, Rural Spain in 1936, The communes and non-hierarchical squats that exist throughout the world today and especially thrive in Europe, occurrences within everyday life in which decisions are made collectively and without coercion by groups of friends, many non-civilized groups of tribal peoples when (and where) they still exist(ed).Quote:
anarchy cannot work because humans are not and will never be equal. greed will always exist and there will always need to be laws to keep parts of humanity in place and to punish those that don't. It has never work and there's really no reason to believe that it will ever work.