Anarchism

[mouseman004]

You only serve to prove my point. We have it (comparably) good so why shouldn't we put our efforts towards making everyone have it great?

What does that have to do with anarchism?

Times are not desperate with government and authority for you maybe; which is once again due to privilege. Go to Oakland and speak to people whose family has been killed by police within the past few months or go to a prison where an environmental rights activist is serving 25 years for destruction of property and tell them that there are no problems with the government or authority. Times aren't desperate for you personally but to fail to acknowledge the hardships that people are going through every day simply because it doesn't affect you is the exact problem with the institution of privilege and its "out of sight, out of mind" mentality.

So you found a couple of extremely specific cases of an abuse of authority, but that calls for an abolition of authority all together? I am not suggesting there isn't abuse of authority in the world, but you are talking about creating a world in which people are free to do what they want when they want. What about situations with authoritative figures who do good. Look at Nelson Mandela ending apartheid. Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets? You can find negative examples of anything to mould to any argument, so forgive me for my heart strings not being tugged by the couple of examples that you provided.

By replacing capital with community.

Wow, what a wonderful world you live in inside your head. Are there rainbows and flowers and houses made of candy too?

[xGriffox]

What does that have to do with anarchism?

absolutely everything. The entire purpose of anarchism is to make things better for humanity as a whole; to truly liberate everyone and to allow for truly fulfilling lives free from coercion in any form.

So you found a couple of extremely specific cases of an abuse of authority, but that calls for an abolition of authority all together?

they are not extremely specific cases but rather specific examples drawn from the huge pool of abuses of authority and law that occur every single day.

I am not suggesting there isn't abuse of authority in the world, but you are talking about creating a world in which people are free to do what they want when they want.

yes, i am. Isn't this not the goal of every human? To have the freedom to do what they wish with their time and to make their lives fulfilling?

What about situations with authoritative figures who do good. Look at Nelson Mandela ending apartheid.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned under the law for his actions in ending apartheid and was held in prison for well over a decade. I would hardly say at that point in time that he held a "position" at all, let alone a position of authority, other than being a popular voice of the oppressed.

Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets? You can find negative examples of anything to mould to any argument, so forgive me for my heart strings not being tugged by the couple of examples that you provided.

you need only look to history and headlines to see the abuses perpetuated by power over and over again. On the occasion that communities finally do decide to protect themselves and to manage their own internal affairs (for example, the Black Panthers) they are targeted by the system of authority as "dangerous" and "revolutionary", sought after by the police, and slowly killed off either in jail cells or by bullets in the street.

Wow, what a wonderful world you live in inside your head. Are there rainbows and flowers and houses made of candy too?

your mockery of that statement only shows how little you understand about any theories pertaining to social organization, even within moderate groups. One doesn't need a system of capital, insurance, etc. if a solid community is available to fall back on and to provide for one another.

[xGriffox]

Or you could go and talk to the people who grew up in oakland and went to school, got good paying jobs and left the area.

funny, because one of my better friends is from Oakland, grew up horribly poor, and tells me of how essentially everyone who is non-white and lower class in Oakland fears for their lives from abuses of the police. He made it out of Oakland and is incredibly well educated (by his own doing, not by the "education" systems there) and he still recognizes the injustices that have occurred and continue to occur there in terms of police harassment, abuse, and even killing. Simply because he made it out does not mean that the hardships of life there stop existing.

are you seriously trying to argue that people blowing shit up isn't wrong?

Are you seriously trying to argue that setting fire to a car that had no one inside of it, was later restored, and then sold, warrants a 25 year prison sentence?

we are not discussing the morals of property destruction here, but rather abuses of authority.

[xsecx]

funny, because one of my better friends is from Oakland, grew up horribly poor, and tells me of how essentially everyone who is non-white and lower class in Oakland fears for their lives from abuses of the police. He made it out of Oakland and is incredibly well educated (by his own doing, not by the "education" systems there) and he still recognizes the injustices that have occurred and continue to occur there in terms of police harassment, abuse, and even killing. Simply because he made it out does not mean that the hardships of life there stop existing.

How is one well educated by their own doing and not the education system? Your comments are about abuses for authority and why anarchy is necessary, but somehow people are able to learn, grow and eventually leave that area. Or, it could be that the people recognize the problems and are actively working to change things. I also like how you pick and choose local responsibility. You talk about the black panthers, but you blame the government and cops for why oakland is a shithole.

Are you seriously trying to argue that setting fire to a car that had no one inside of it, was later restored, and then sold, warrants a 25 year prison sentence?

we are not discussing the morals of property destruction here, but rather abuses of authority.

If you're going to speak about specifics rather than generalities, you might want to reference what it is you're talking about rather than assuming everyone will know the specifics of what you're talking about.

[xsecx]

you need only look to history and headlines to see the abuses perpetuated by power over and over again. On the occasion that communities finally do decide to protect themselves and to manage their own internal affairs (for example, the Black Panthers) they are targeted by the system of authority as "dangerous" and "revolutionary", sought after by the police, and slowly killed off either in jail cells or by bullets in the street.

you completely ignored his point because you know full well you can't counter it.

[xGriffox]

you completely ignored his point because you know full well you can't counter it.

bring up some points of your own then and let's make this a right-proper debate. Why can't anarchy work and why is government the ideal system of human management?

[xsecx]

bring up some points of your own then and let's make this a right-proper debate. Why can't anarchy work and why is government the ideal system of human management?

I already have but like usual you've ignored those posts, but awesome way to ignore his point again and try and shift attention.

anarchy cannot work because humans are not and will never be equal. greed will always exist and there will always need to be laws to keep parts of humanity in place and to punish those that don't. It has never work and there's really no reason to believe that it will ever work.

[xGriffox]

How is one well educated by their own doing and not the education system?

he dropped out of high school and is one of the most eloquent and incredibly intelligent individuals i have met. He educated himself through reading and interactions with others rather than through the traditional track of public education.

Your comments are about abuses for authority and why anarchy is necessary, but somehow people are able to learn, grow and eventually leave that area. Or, it could be that the people recognize the problems and are actively working to change things.

your point here is muddled here, but let me try to respond regardless.
Certainly people are able to grow and learn even in the most repressive of environments (see the Red Army Faction for example), but that does not mean that the repressive environment should continue to exist.

I also like how you pick and choose local responsibility. You talk about the black panthers, but you blame the government and cops for why oakland is a shithole.

I was merely stating that police repression is a very real problem in that specific community. Certainly there are other issues (drug dealing, drug homicides, gang shootings etc.) and these issues need to be addressed as well, but i think they should be addressed by the community and not by the state.

If you're going to speak about specifics rather than generalities, you might want to reference what it is you're talking about rather than assuming everyone will know the specifics of what you're talking about.

does the destruction of property in which no living being is harmed ever warrant a 25 year sentence?

[xsecx]

he dropped out of high school and is one of the most eloquent and incredibly intelligent individuals i have met. He educated himself through reading and interactions with others rather than through the traditional track of public education.

Then I'd have to question what he's actually educated in and what's he's actually qualified to do.

your point here is muddled here, but let me try to respond regardless.
Certainly people are able to grow and learn even in the most repressive of environments (see the Red Army Faction for example), but that does not mean that the repressive environment should continue to exist.

but they're not able to leave. in your example people are stuck in that system and in your example it's limited to a given geographic location.

I was merely stating that police repression is a very real problem in that specific community. Certainly there are other issues (drug dealing, drug homicides, gang shootings etc.) and these issues need to be addressed as well, but i think they should be addressed by the community and not by the state.

and yet, it isn't. There's nothing stopping the community from doing so, and some are, but if you take a look I'm sure you'd find government funding and assistance all over those areas. I'd like some sucessful examples of where communities have tackled problems like you listed without any government assistance.

does the destruction of property in which no living being is harmed ever warrant a 25 year sentence?

depends on the circumstances, depends on if someone has prior convictions, and it depends on what else the person is involved in. you can't talk about this shit in a vacuum.

[xGriffox]

I already have but like usual you've ignored those posts, but awesome way to ignore his point again and try and shift attention.

Or you made a case about police in Oakland killing people. Lets talk to the families of everybody in the world who have been SAVED by the existence of a police department. How many kidnappings solved, how many weapons taken off the streets?.

The police (and as a further extension, the army) serve the purpose of being the arm of the state and the way in which its laws are enforced in the physical plane. Certainly the police have saved people when it has synced up within the law but in the same manner they have repressed them when the law and the state has allowed it. Look to segregation, slavery, Bloody Sunday, the movement against Apartheid, the Angola 3, the entire anti-war movement, the Red Scare, the Green Scare, the January Uprising in Poland, and so many more than come to mind right now.

Every case of state repression has not been carried out by the ruler him or herself, but rather by the generals, armies, and police forces under his/her command. You have called me out for ignoring the good that police do for people and i continue to call you out for every case of state repression that could have never occurred without such a police force.
"There is a psychological deficiency in policing others."

anarchy cannot work because humans are not and will never be equal. greed will always exist and there will always need to be laws to keep parts of humanity in place and to punish those that don't. It has never work and there's really no reason to believe that it will ever work.

see: The Paris Commune, Rural Spain in 1936, The communes and non-hierarchical squats that exist throughout the world today and especially thrive in Europe, occurrences within everyday life in which decisions are made collectively and without coercion by groups of friends, many non-civilized groups of tribal peoples when (and where) they still exist(ed).

[xGriffox]

Then I'd have to question what he's actually educated in and what's he's actually qualified to do.

well then you would probably have to meet him. He is a competent mechanic, computer tech, essential encyclopedia on mathematics and radical theory, and a wonderfully eloquent speaker and writer.

I'd like some sucessful examples of where communities have tackled problems like you listed without any government assistance.

Though i have used this example already and though it was some years back, the Black Panther Party served this role for a decent period of time before they were picked off by the powers that be.

depends on the circumstances, depends on if someone has prior convictions, and it depends on what else the person is involved in. you can't talk about this shit in a vacuum.

The fact that you are considering locking a human being away for a quarter century for a non-violent crime astounds me.

[mouseman004]

absolutely everything. The entire purpose of anarchism is to make things better for humanity as a whole; to truly liberate everyone and to allow for truly fulfilling lives free from coercion in any form.

That is the most optimistic view of anarchy I have ever heard, and is completely naive and gives a false sense of the reality of the human mind. So child molesters should be allowed to have free access to whomever they want? I should have the ability to steal from anybody I want, because in anarchy, private property doesn't exist. This is no different than the Christian debate about sxe. You are taking parts of a beleif system that help your argument and ignoring the parts that you don't like.

they are not extremely specific cases but rather specific examples drawn from the huge pool of abuses of authority and law that occur every single day.

Once again, you are ignoring the benefits of authority and looking only at the abuses of power. You fail to realise that without authority of any kind, mankind would erupt into chaos. I am a firm beleieve in much of what Thomas Hobbes said about the state of nature and the evil of mankind.

yes, i am. Isn't this not the goal of every human? To have the freedom to do what they wish with their time and to make their lives fulfilling?

See my first point in this post.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned under the law for his actions in ending apartheid and was held in prison for well over a decade. I would hardly say at that point in time that he held a "position" at all, let alone a position of authority, other than being a popular voice of the oppressed.

He used his position as president of South Africa to completely reform the country, how can you argue he never used a position of authority? Yes, the white government imprisoned Mandela and enforced a racist regime, once again I am not arguing that abuses of power don't exist, they obviously do. I am simply arguing that there are countless situations in which power and positions of authority are used for good and to help people.

you need only look to history and headlines to see the abuses perpetuated by power over and over again. On the occasion that communities finally do decide to protect themselves and to manage their own internal affairs (for example, the Black Panthers) they are targeted by the system of authority as "dangerous" and "revolutionary", sought after by the police, and slowly killed off either in jail cells or by bullets in the street.

The black panthers were a violent radical group so your example of the goodness of society coming through internal organisations is not at ALL enforced by that example. I supported the ideas that the panthers were fighting for, but their methods were violent and radical.

your mockery of that statement only shows how little you understand about any theories pertaining to social organization, even within moderate groups. One doesn't need a system of capital, insurance, etc. if a solid community is available to fall back on and to provide for one another.

You really need to stop making assumptions about me. I just finished a 4 year university degree studying politics, political organisation and political thinkers from Marx and Engels to Hobbes. I have taken classes taught by marxists, anarchists, capitalists, so I am fairly certain that my understanding of social organisation and political theories is quite extensive. I have studied anarchy, feminism, eco-feminism, capitalism, marxism, social democracy, and the list continues. So don't assume that I don't understand what I am talking about, because you are wrong. But wait, my education came from a school that is paid for by the government, so I suppose that doesn't really count? And Your naive outlook on the state of current affairs and on anarchy and community vs. captial pretty much shows me that you have a one sided view of these theories and have chosen to look at only what you want to look at.

[xGriffox]

You really need to stop making assumptions about me. I just finished a 4 year university degree studying politics, political organisation and political thinkers from Marx and Engels to Hobbes. I have taken classes taught by marxists, anarchists, capitalists, so I am fairly certain that my understanding of social organisation and political theories is quite extensive. I have studied anarchy, feminism, eco-feminism, capitalism, marxism, social democracy, and the list continues.

seems like you really didn't absorb much then considering the fact that you seem to totally misunderstand the tenants of anarchism and liberation ideologies as a whole.

Your generalizations about the black panthers being violent and far too radical are indicative of (from what i can observe) your status-quo ideological outlook.

[xGriffox]

P.S. I understand both sides of the argument for and against the state. We are debating here though so why would i be on your side of this argument?

[xsecx]

yeah you still ignored one, but hey.

The police (and as a further extension, the army) serve the purpose of being the arm of the state and the way in which its laws are enforced in the physical plane. Certainly the police have saved people when it has synced up within the law but in the same manner they have repressed them when the law and the state has allowed it. Look to segregation, slavery, Bloody Sunday, the movement against Apartheid, the Angola 3, the entire anti-war movement, the Red Scare, the Green Scare, the January Uprising in Poland, and so many more than come to mind right now.

Every case of state repression has not been carried out by the ruler him or herself, but rather by the generals, armies, and police forces under his/her command. You have called me out for ignoring the good that police do for people and i continue to call you out for every case of state repression that could have never occurred without such a police force.
"There is a psychological deficiency in policing others."

uh, they can't really save people when it isn't in scope of the law, if it did, you'd be crying the other way about abuse beyond authority just in a different direction. Can you also use things that are at least within the last 20 years if you're going to use them for examples, otherwise they aren't really relevant to what's in place and happening today. just about every case you listed has been corrected and actions have been put in place to keep them from occurring again. You completely deny the good that is done daily because it doesn't fit into your agenda but instead you choose to focus on limited abuse that isn't systematic and certainly isn't as wide spread and your point would lead people to believe.

see: The Paris Commune, Rural Spain in 1936, The communes and non-hierarchical squats that exist throughout the world today and especially thrive in Europe, occurrences within everyday life in which decisions are made collectively and without coercion by groups of friends, many non-civilized groups of tribal peoples when (and where) they still exist(ed).

and none of that is relevant when talking about a global or even country based system since it's never existed on any kind of scale and when it has, has been destroyed due to it's inherent weaknesses.